Brain storming session...

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:34 pm

Hi guys...

Got a few ideas I've been pondering on this really nasty rainy day... that and I stood staring at the cooking tools at the grocery store today.

The first:

Power mixing epoxy. Been wondering if those old style hand held kitchen mixers with either a whisk attachment or paddles would do the trick for mixing epoxy. Same total number of mixing movements, in less time... might help out those of us without a partner in crime mixing while the other wets out.

Second:

Wondering if a kitchen whisk would do the trick for mixing in cabosil and microballoons. Sticks seem to just push the fluff around on top...

Piggy backing... If west systems were a little thinner, it'd be slick to pre-measure the fluff and toss it in the bottom of another bucket, dump the whole mess over and mix it up without making a dust cloud. I was mixing 407 on a windy day a few weeks ago...

Third:

Silicone mixing bowls. Seems like these beasties would pop yesterdays work out, with less acetone fumes and rolls of paper towels to clean up along the way.

Fourth:

Sheet metal paddles. Its beginning to piss me off that unless you drown a plastic squeegee in acetone, tomorrow its a crusty ball of goo... Toothed spreaders, same deal. Metal at least gives the opportunity to burn off the old goo and get your tool back! (If there is some interest in this I can scan a toothed spreader, drop it in cad, and burn a stack of them out on the wire edm up at work...)

Fifth:

Silicone mixing spoons/spatulas... Bet they'd get the last drips out of the bottom of the bucket a lot better than a piece of a batten or scrap of plywood. Bonus points... a lot of them for spreading thickened goo on inside corners.

Zach

FloatingMoneyPit · Post by **FloatingMoneyPit** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:00 pm

Some neat ideas there. I'm especially curious to hear the pros' thoughts on the spatula & electric mixer ideas.

Regarding spreaders and mixing vessels/bowls, it was only after a number of epoxy sessions that I went to open a new bag of West System mixing sticks and noticed the word "Re-usable"...duh! After few seconds of scraping, I realized you just need to twist and deform the things a little and the cured epoxy flakes right off. Good as new. Same with the yellow and red spreaders.

For mixing bowls, I use the cheapo set of 3 or 4 Glad tupperware type food savers from the grocery store. Been a while since I did any epoxy work, so I don't remember if cured epoxy came off easily or if I just discarded them. But I do remember checking the manufacturer's website to make sure the bowls weren't made or coated with anything that would contaminate epoxy.

Now for the aluminum and plastic rollers, I am at a loss. Only the acetone bath seems to work, and god forbid the epoxy has started to set off before you get it into the acetone...

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:51 pm

I haven't yet invested in the mixing sticks... I did successfully glue my plywood stick to the bottom of my mixing bucket two weeks ago. Pry... SNAP! Such a shame... No question, 407 and cabosil together makes some tough stuff! (Grin)

Yeah, the yellow and toothed spreaders are the bane of my existence. I'm used to polyester body fillers which they shed readily... maybe West Systems brand lets it go a little easier.

Also haven't successfully saved a paint brush used for wetting out. Acetone or not, just seems like there ought to be a way... Though it is pretty cool when they set up into modern art. "Look ma... no hands... paint brush in suspended animation!"

As far as the aluminum rollers go... take a torch and burn the epoxy off. A light wire brushing to knock the carbon off and they are good as new. Probably a good task to do on a windy day... grin.

Actually... a stainless bowl wouldn't be half bad. Do the same heat trick and save some pennies. Probably a bad idea to get caught in the kitchen pulling epoxy out of the kitchen pans though...

Zach

Post by **Tim** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:19 am

Brushes are reusable only if they stay soaking/submerged in acetone at all times between uses. Otherwise, they always harden. They seem to be nearly immortal if they stay in acetone at all times (shake them out just before use). I only use brushes occasionally, and often only for a very brief time, so this sort of recycling makes sense to me.

Cabosil is a pain to mix in whatever you use--power or hand. All a power mixer does is throw the dust around that much higher and further, and other than being of assistance in large batches, isn't worth the trouble. In my opinion. Also, beware of using certain power mixers in plastic pails or buckets: you can get little pieces of plastic in the epoxy that the mixer scrapes off the pail. Use only in hard-type plastics, or metal.

I don't reuse cured containers--it's a small cost in the scheme of things, and I like a nice fresh container without worry of stray hardened epoxy chunks or flakes, which can happen easily unless one spends way too much time trying to save a $0.50 container. That sort of time is wasteful for me--from a cost perspective, if it takes one minute to clean an old container, it's cheaper to use two new ones--but maybe it works for others. (I do nearly all epoxy mixing in 1-qt plastic containers that come by the case.)

David · Post by **David** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:04 am

Zach,

I've tried the silicone mixing bowls. They deform enough to pop out most of the hardened epoxy but I still have to scrape off the the thin edges. I use paper ice cream cups in different sizes that I buy in bulk now.

The West spreading and mixing tools will melt if left in acetone, but I just wipe them off with a little acetone on a paper towel and that cleans them for the next use. i also keep a covered bucket of TA 661 from Epoxy Products ( http://www.epoxyproducts.com/8_misc.html ) and that stuff soaks away and cleans tools of epoxy. I don't know what it is but it feels oily and works really well. I have heard you can do the same with alcohol or with vinigar.

David

keelbolts · Post by **keelbolts** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:16 am

Here's some good news for those of you awash in a sea of nasty chemicals: vinegar. Yup, plain old white vinegar. It cleans up unset epoxy as good or better than anything else you can find, including acetone. You can get it for about a buck a gallon and it's not toxic. Don't you just love the idea of cleaning epoxy off your tools with something you can safely drink?

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:24 am

I always toss my brushes after using them in epoxy. I buy cheap brushes, and figure it costs as much in acetone as it does a new brush, so why bother.

And vinegear works great - just be sure to rinse anything that is plain steel or aluminum off after using. Vinegear can cause some metals to oxidize.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:48 pm

Good stuff guys!

Tim, I'll have to try the Acetone soaked brush. It always seems like I run out of them late Saturday night or Sunday morning, same deal with fresh buckets. More about finding the "last ones I'll ever buy" for that reason... instead of having to paint with a shop rag. (Grin)

Less about the time value, than the... "Aw dang it!" of being out of supplies.

Keelbolts! Vinegar. I gave it a try, liked it... and forgot about the bottle laying under my tarp. Will have to give it another go on the plastic spreaders. (Summer Dawn... Yup, it made the handle of my roller all rusty...)

Dropped a line to West Systems last week, and got a reply...

Said no problem using the silicone bowls or spatulas!

I'll do some reconnaissance work for bakeware and interesting gadgets for rapid mixing. Gotta tab some new main bulkheads in the next few weeks, not looking forward to mixing and wetting out in small batches!

My attempt at using thin plastic cutting boards as a wet out station was an abysmal failure, then the wind blew sand over and turned to a non-skid cutting board. But maybe a sheet of silicone rubber will do the trick?

Have you guys used dunking trays to wet out glass? It's my preferred way to do polyester, as it'll saturate even the nastiest most heinous mat, but haven't really given it a go with epoxy.

Also... cabosil into laminating resin? A few of the guys around the yard do it for vertical surfaces when glassing shrimp boats so the stuff stays stuck. Thoughts on strength? Or is it just psychological assistance?

Thanks for the ideas guys!

Zach

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:16 am

Zach wrote:Also... cabosil into laminating resin? A few of the guys around the yard do it for vertical surfaces when glassing shrimp boats so the stuff stays stuck.

As a general rule, no.

I've never glassed a shrimp boat or other large, unfair, old, and workboat-like surface, so I can't speak to the effectiveness or need for the addition of cabosil. Suffice it to say I've never used, seen, or experienced it in widely varied but normal lamination, though this isn't the first time I've heard of the practice.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:42 am

I watched a crew in a large yard over in Galveston last spring glassing a 2 .5 million dollar tour boat. They were applying matt to the exterior of the pilot house, using a 5 gallon bucket of 5200 spread with toothed spreaders, then rolled in with ridged metal rollers.

The base surface was aluminum, so regular epoxy would not hold. This was a base coat with the intention of adding more glass/resin over it once the 5200 cured.

By the way- a 5 gallon pail of 5200 at that time cost $1200 bucks.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:06 am

Some of my best examples of "What not to do" come from 'boatyard professionals'. There are some knowledgable ones on this forum so I don't intend offense but entry standards to get into the industry and oversite are non-existent so I generally ignore what the 'professionals' do and do my own research.

My view is a bit warped since I come from the aviation industry where everything is over-controlled (and bonehead maintenance still manages to get through) but I find a lot of marine professionals don't understand the inner workings of a bolt and nut, (thread shape, tolerance, pitch, materials, proper stretch - there is more than you might think) let alone advanced systems and composite / laminate repairs.

I would consult Gougeon Bros. or whatever brand of epoxy you prefer, add your own common sense, and ignore what you see around you.

For wetting out, I just use cardboard and toss it when it gets messy. With all the stuff that keeps coming in for the boat I am never short of cardboard boxes.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:45 pm

You guys are missing the boat on spreaders if you aren't saving the blank credit cards that come with the pleas to open a new account. I have a stack about 4 inches tall and they make GREAT spreaders. You can also cut curvesin the corners and use as fillet tools, then just pitch the card- there'll be another couple in tomorrow's mail-grin

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:03 pm

bcooke wrote:For wetting out, I just use cardboard and toss it when it gets messy. With all the stuff that keeps coming in for the boat I am never short of cardboard boxes.

I've used plastic to good effect. Just the clear stuff that comes on a roll that you might use for house vapor barrier, etc. It works well when you have something like a settee base to support it (probably best to remove cushions.....).

For smaller stuff I keep a cheap plastic dishpan on hand. It's pretty easy to swipe out with acetone when I'm done - not that I'd keep on using the same one forever, necessarily, but the work-to-save ratio seems pretty good.

I'll see if I can post photos of an "automated" cloth wetter made of a dishpan, a couple of pieces of scrap ply, two dowels, drywall screws, and two rubber-bands (sounds right up your alley, eh Zach?). This was a proof-of-concept mockup used prior to making a better one (not by me but by others here). It looked interesting for bigger jobs. Kind of like an old fashioned clothes wringer but for wetting out.

Rachel

deckhand · Post by **deckhand** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:27 pm

One of the advantages of the horribly wasteful metrocard system in New York City is that there is always a huge pile of "reusable" metrocards at the turnstiles. I discovered the wonders of this completely impermiable, everything resistant material when I was doing lots of silk screening. nice and stiff and like I said, nothing eats it (some sort of poly olefin I think). Next time you guys are up that way grab a hand full.

On another note, the metrocard system itself is efficient and environmentally friendly. Sadly it's the people that don't understand (or don't want to understand) that the cards are reusable for a YEAR that are the problem. I'll be retiring my "expired" card in November.

keelbolts · Post by **keelbolts** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:00 pm

DJ,
Credit cards. What a great idea. Now I'm looking forward to my junk mail!

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:56 pm

Credit cards.

Also great for taking that thin layer of ice off your glass windows and ports when sailing on days that are way too cold!