H20 Tanks

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Could anyone give me some references for custom made stainless steel or poly water tanks?

I have already spoke to Ronco plastics but was looking at trying to find some others to compare. Looks like the cost to make a custom poly tank might be inline with a custom welded stainless tank, or at least close enough to warrant getting the stainless tank.

Trying to move my 35 gallon rectangular water tank from high in the stern to down deep in the bilge.

Thoughts?

Thanks again,

Bryon
http://picasaweb.google.com/Idon84 (pictures of the tank mock ups here)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:06 pm

These cost me about $1700. You could probably do better if you don't approach them looking desperate. Like my tanks, I see your mockups have some fancy shapes to them (non-square box shaped) That will cost extra.

I would check with the local commercial fishermen about a good welder. All welder's are not created equal and finding someone that knows the marine environment is a plus.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:11 am

The Ronco Plastics tanks are rotomolded polyethylene which are nice because they are all one piece. The problem is that you can't get a baffle in them which limits their size and shape.

I've found welded polypropylene by Triple M plastics to be great because I can design my own for the space I need. They are great people to work with, and they make a great welded plastic tank.

http://www.triplemplastics.com

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:16 pm

NICE Britton, I'm jealous!

I've asked around town (Olympia) about a welder that could do this and all I get are blank stares so talking to some fishermen is a good idea. Unfortunately the only one I know just took his crab boat up to Alaska so I'll have to go hunt for others.

I like you Poop tank as well. I'm going to need one of those too but haven't got to the point of measuring out one of those yet. Probably be cheaper to do all at the same time! But the for-peak is being completely re designed so I don't know where that will go yet.

CC... I've seen that site before but forgot about it so thanks, they'll be getting my drawings to bid on too. As far as the baffle is concerned, I made 2 separate tanks, both being approximately 20 gallons each so I don't have to worry about that much even though I read that you should have 1 baffle for each 15 gallons of water. My old 32 Gal. tank didn't have any baffles and was nasty when 1/2 full loaded high in the stern.

Thanks

Bryon
http://picasaweb.google.com/Idon84

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:35 pm

KAHOLEE's water tanks. They were around $1000 from a shop in Albuquerque which is no longer in business.

Not water tanks, but for reference...

I had a copy of Britton's fuel tank made at the same shop he used for around $550.

http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/fe ... /20807.htm

http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/fe ... /21907.htm

We made the holding tank out of plywood which was substantially less expensive.

http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/au ... /80707.htm

http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/au ... /80807.htm

http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/au ... /81007.htm

http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/no ... 110107.htm

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:59 pm

I really shouldn't have clicked on this thread... (Grin)

Allen, I like the split V-berth tank. Thats a great idea.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:57 pm

Allen will never go thirsty :-)

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:52 pm

Well... Just got a few quotes from some companies...

On the Stainless Steel Side:
1. $1050 each + Shipping(east coast)
2. $630 each + Shipping(east coast)
3. $1500 for 1 and $2200 for the other!!!! OUCH! Made of Gold? +Shipping(east coast)

On the Polyurethane side:

1. Triple M Plastics $876 for both but I have to add the fittings.

Still waiting on a few others. I also contacted the commercial fishing fleet out of Westport WA and got an almost unanimous response for whom they use. I've contacted them... Lets hope it's a bit cheaper. Shipping would be me driving an hour to pick it up. I really want SS BAD!

Thanks for the help!

Bryon
www.picasaweb.google.com/Idon84

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:54 pm

One of the companies quoted the tank size too...

Forward Tank 30.5 gal
Aft Tank 24.5 gal

I wanted between 50-60 gal total. So this is perfect!

Bryon

www.picasaweb.com/idon84

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:57 pm

Stainless is good.

Stainless is NOT cheap.

Local is the only way to go with these. It isn't rocket science. Any good welder can do it.

The odd shapes really add to the time involved to make them and naturally drive the price up.

The real biter though is the fact that good welders don't really need our piddly little business. These little tanks are more trouble than they are worth to many of them. The price often reflects their mood and hunger at the moment.

deckhand · Post by **deckhand** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:48 pm

At these fairly high prices I'm suprised that no one has suggested this yet...

make them.

its all thin guage stainless, just pick up a medium powered mig welder (its sheet so mig will be great), some air powered metal nips, and a compressor if you don't have one.

Even at onlinemetals.com fairly expensive prices, building in 316L is going to be $300 plus a fitting. Plus you learn how to mig weld... (personally I think that's worth the money in itself). Heck, at the quoted prices, you could almost think of it as tanks with a free welder.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:13 pm

Well, in my case, tank failure at some later date due to poor welding would be tough to deal with and require major disassembly and major headaches.

I am all for learning as much as I can. 90 percent of what I have been doing is all new to me after all. Welding is definitely a skill I would like to try someday but not on tanks buried in the depths of my boat. Maybe the bumper on my pickup instead. My understanding is that stainless can be a bit tricky to weld properly too.

An interesting idea though. Next time maybe?

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:21 pm

Agreed. Although I'm interested in doing just about all of my work, the thought of having to remove the tanks sooner than later (my luck) doesn't sound fun. However, having the basic knowledge I do see as critical. I've welded up a 4x4 before and man were those ugly welds! 7 years later they are still holding.

Thanks for the info. Still waiting on others for quotes. We'll let you know how it pans out.

Bryon

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:56 pm

OK, so I finally made a decision on the water tanks. I am going with Triple M Plastics in Maine. They quoted me $400 for the rear tank and $475 for the aft tank. Shipping for both tanks will be in the $150 range to Olympia WA. The cheapest Stainless Steel quote I got would be near $2500. Not only that but Triple M has been VERY helpful answering all my questions, something that doesn't seem to happen very often in the boating world. Especially with the stainless tanks.

Both tanks will be ready to accept fittings provided by me. I'll be able to use fittings from the hardware store (PVC etc).

I do have one other question that for some reason I can't get out of my brain. I asked for the pick up to be 1" not 3/4" like I've seen in other tanks. My reasoning for the larger bore to move water from these "belly" tanks to my smaller 10 gallon "use" tank via a transfer pump which all seem to be 1" or larger bore. The fills for the belly tanks will be inside the boat and the 10 gallon "use" tank will have a fill on deck for accepting rainwater etc., then I can pump any water collected into the "belly" tanks or vise versa.

A 1/4" difference in pick up tube size shouldn't be a problem hu? Thoughts? Am I missing anything here or something I should consider before I part with a boat unit ($1000)?

Thanks for all the input.

Bryon
www.picasaweb.com/idon84

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:11 pm

Why do you need the intermediate 'use' tank? Is there a reason why you can't draw directly from your 'belly' tanks?

Have you considered whether you need baffles?

When I had my tanks made the welder asked if he could use 7/8" outlet tubes since he didn't have 3/4 in stock. Without thinking I said sure, not realizing that 7/8" drinking water hose is not exactly hanging on every hardware shelf. Now I have to have a reducer at every outlet.

One note about PVC fittings. I know of some boats with PVC fittings that have cracked. I don't know the details but from that I decided to stick with metal fittings.

When you decide to tackle the waste tank, I wouldn't bother with expensive tanks like I did. Plywood/fiberglass tanks seem to work fine in the smaller sizes that are most common for waste tanks. If I could do it again I would also install two vent outlets and create good airflow through the tank, feeding the non odor causing aerobic bacteria.

Thanks for making my tanks sound inexpensive. I feel much better about them now :-)

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:13 pm

No, there is no reason why I can't feed from the belly tanks. I'll probably have a valve to do just that. I saw the system on another cruising boat a while back.

The thinking is:
1. collect rainwater easily from the deck, the belly tanks are only fillable from below.
2. The ability to monitor our water consumption over a long period of time.
3. I can brew beer in the smaller tank! Kidding.

I asked about the baffles and wether they add an additional layer of plastic in the area where the fittings mount. They said yes to both. They add baffles every 16" and the entire mounting surface is double thickness. Lifetime warranty too. Of course that's always hit or miss.

I haven't thought of using metal fittings for the tanks. I'll have to look into that. I don't like PVC for that very reason. I'm guessing that metal pipes from the hardware store should work fine too.

After this whole session on custom tanks I agree that my waste tank will be made of ply and glass. It's the only way I'll be able to keep my costs down and my sanity in place. Besides I think the only way I could do what I want to do up forward in the head would be to make the tank deep in the bilge under a sturdy floor for the chain locker.

On another note, I met another BCC owner with an interesting vacuum system for his head. His holding tanks are 2 side by side 8" x 3' PVC pipes (S**t Silos he calls them). They mount to the back side of the forward bulkhead and the whole system is run by a transfer pump and a special vacuum toilet. You simply select the tank, use, pump the transfer pump 50 times, then step on the toilets flush and viola, with a slurp it goes into the silos. No Water Needed. Of course 50 pumps each time after a bad meal could wear out an arm, so I'm not sure I like it.

This pic shows the toilet and just behind the bulkhead you can see part of the PVC Tank heading towards the deck at an angle.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Idon84/Misc ... 5430460962

This picture shows you the transfer pump just behind the bulkhead.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Idon84/Misc ... 5660675794

He has used the system for over 17 years(live aboard) with no problems. Of course I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a maze of PVC pipe holding some 10 gallons of crap right next to the chain locker. But its quite the interesting system.

Enjoy your beautiful and expensive tanks. Only time will tell if these plastic tanks were worth the savings, so we'll see! But again I must say anyone looking to get custom tanks, the people at Triple M Plastics were great to deal with.

Cheers,

Bryon
www.picasaweb.com/idon84

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:13 pm

Enjoy your beautiful and expensive tanks

At $400 and $475 plus $150 shipping, putting fittings and such on your tanks and connecting them all together with the transfer system you have in mind I am not sure there is much difference between our prices on and individual basis. I think my tanks with all fittings and access panels complete and delivered to the boat were about $550 a piece. I just have the extra tank.

Many different ways to get the same job done. I hope it works out for you.

50 pumps each time? Yikes! And I thought the 15 strokes for the Lavac was a bit excessive.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:13 pm

I just had a yo-duh moment considering I work for a plastics company... PVC pipes as the holding tank would be an easy, cheap method. Lower volume than a rectangular tank in the same space, but....

I'll have to do some thinking about this one.

10 inch ID has an area of 78.5 inches. A 3 inch long pipe would have 235 cubic inches. 1 US gallon is 231 cubic inches. Interesting! 30 inch pipe = 10 gallons.

12in ID is 226ci for a 2 inch length. 20.4in for 10 gallons.

Hmm. (Amazingly enough, this topic was talked about on Cruisers forum too. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f11 ... 16238.html )

Edit: A wrap of fiberglass around the outside of the containment vessel (Sure hope its not under pressure... grin) would be a cheap/easy way to make impact a non-issue...

Edit 2: Hmm... a couple long tubes in the bilge would give a whole lot of added water tankage for the externally ballasted tritons. (Like mine, where the bilge is small enough that a metal tank wouldn't make sense to build, and plastic would be custom.)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:06 pm

The pipe could be a neat idea for the right situations. I wonder what the "sloshability" factor would be if they were lying lengthwise? Normally, a wide, flat tank is prone to that; but I wonder if that doesn't hold true for the pipe? I'm thinking that maybe there's something to the fact that it's spherical, and/or so narrow for the length.

R.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:06 pm

Thought this was an interesting way to do things: http://www.southwindsmagazine.com/artic ... S0008.html

No parts that don't absolutely have to be there. Pretty sure I'd put a valve on the bottom of the tank though!

(And a Y-valve on the inlet side to use the head pump as a bilge pump!)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:11 pm

Here's the diagram that goes along with the article:

I see a few things I'm not fond of -- and I probably wouldn't implement it myself -- but I appreciate the "think outside the box" KISS-type philosophy.

In most multihull and small boat installations, the MSD [toilet] is above the waterline.

That's probably a stretch though, isn't it? Also the holding tank has to be above the waterline. That's probably easier to accomplish. I guess you don't empty the holding tank on the "wrong" tack though (?)

Here's a different idea (from a recent job) that was new to me, and that I liked: Instead of Y-valves, the holding tank was plumbed with separate pickup tubes for the deck fitting and the seacock. So, when you want to pump out, you'd just open the deck fitting and do it. Likewise, when you want to pump overboard, you'd just open the seacock and pump overboard.

Rachel

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:22 am

I have a "K.I.S.S." head system and I love it. It'll empty on either tack, as the motion of the water past the thru hull sucks it out. It's neat, simple, has a minimum of hose (about 30" total), and makes good use of the area behind the head. With the ultra short hose runs very little water is required to flush the bowl into the tank.

Rachael wrote:I see a few things I'm not fond of -- and I probably wouldn't implement it myself -- but I appreciate the "think outside the box" KISS-type philosophy.

Mine differs from the diagram in two ways:
- there are two vents, one on each side of the tank
- the deck pumpout hose goes straight down through the top of the tank (using fittings) right to within 1" of the tank bottom.

We ALWAYS close both head valves after use, and I slip a lock over the outlet valve handle when in areas inappropriate for direct dumping.

Did I say I love my "K.I.S.S." system ....... ?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:00 pm

Thanks for the "real world" info, Peter.

Maybe I judged it a bit too harshly, and, after all, I haven't used one like you have.

R.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:16 am

Not harsh, Rachael .... for every one of use wearing rose-colored glasses we need a counterpart with a discerning eye ;-)

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:22 am

Rachel wrote:
Here's a different idea (from a recent job) that was new to me, and that I liked: Instead of Y-valves, the holding tank was plumbed with separate pickup tubes for the deck fitting and the seacock. So, when you want to pump out, you'd just open the deck fitting and do it. Likewise, when you want to pump overboard, you'd just open the seacock and pump overboard.

Rachel

There is no need for a y-valve even if they draw off the same pick-up. As long as the other outlet is sealed off the draw will come from the tank. The only place a y-valve is needed in my opinion is if one wants to tank and direct overboard options.

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:22 pm

Got the tanks back from Triple M Plastics.

They are heavily built and fit perfectly. Their service was excellent and shipping was not so bad as to cause a heart attach of course they can do nothing about shipping.

The aft tank is 18.5 Gallons and the forward tank is 26 gallons. The entire area behind the fittings are double reinforced.

I was told that they put baffles in ever 16" but neither tank has a baffle. The tanks are 27" overall. This would be the only thing they said they would do that didn't happen but due to the fact that the tanks quite hefty, Small (18 & 26gl), have a lifetime guarantee, and the service was excellent I would have to give these guys a big recommendation for their work.

Only time will tell how well they last. They look like they could last a long time!

Updated pictures: www.picasaweb.com/idon84

Bryon

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:56 am

Bryon,

Looking at those tanks, I can see why they didn't bother with baffles since they are rather narrow. The holding tank they built for me is roughly the same shape and they did not put a baffle in there either. My 30 gal. fuel tank, on the other hand, is considerably wider and they put in a very good baffle system in that.

When you get a chance, can you post a picture of your lazarette hatch drainage system from the top? That looks pretty amazing and something I'm trying very hard *not* to do on my boat. :)

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:37 am

AGREED. I was thinking the same thing about the baffles. I tend to worry about the small stuff all the time. Now if it were a large tank, like my last 32 gal. Ronco water tank above the water line without a baffle... That was just uncomfortable.

I'll get those pictures. I'll be out there tonight grinding away some more thru hulls and mocking up the other settee. I just looked at ALL of my pictures and I don't have any on deck shots of the channels.

WARNING though, I have not beautified the topside yet so it looks a little ugly but you can easily see how it fits.

Bryon
www.picasaweb.com/idon84

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:23 pm

Idon84 wrote:WARNING though, I have not beautified the topside yet so it looks a little ugly but you can easily see how it fits.

As most members of this forum will attest, there is NOTHING ugly about a work in progress.

Oh, one more question: those inspection ports on the tanks: did Triple M mount those or did you?

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:15 am

The inspection ports were installed by Triple M.

The pictures you requested are up

Bryon
www.picasaweb.com/idon84

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:52 am

Thanks Bryon. Beautiful work. You've given me a lot to think about!

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