Triton variants?

[bcooke]

Hey there all,

I was doing a little shopping and came across a reference for Triton 28's (28 feet) and Triton 28-6's (28 feet 6 inches). Could this be a designation for East/West coast Tritons? The numbers referenced mounting fixtures attached to the hull. Do hull lengths vary among Tritons?!

-Britton

[Tim]

What's the reference? I don't think there are any differences in Triton hulls, East vs. West, new vs. old, etc., so I'm guessing it's a matter of the typical sort of lackadaisacal measuring or description that you find when looking around.

[bcooke]

Monitor windvane mounts. The company has two different drawings on file (28 and 28-6) for the Tritons.

I wonder if I look closely at the drawings if I will find all the details to be identical... Duplicate drawings with different titles. I am going to go back and check it out.

I thought I had missed something big there for a moment :-)

-Britton

[Tim]

I once requested the drawing from Monitor for the Triton, but I can't seem to find it now. I was going to check and see what was written on it.

I'll be interested to see if you notice any differences in the two drawings.

[Dave, 397]

Well, there were also at least one (I think two) completely non-Triton Tritons that Pearson produced in the dark latter days...One of which may have been 28 feet, not sure.
Dave

[bcooke]

This is what the company designer wrote when I asked the question:

Actually, both boat are the same,except for one detail (as far as we've been
able to find out) - the Tritons were built by tow companies, one on the east
coast & one on the west. The east coast boats had a balsa-cored deck & wood
coamings & trim; the west coast boats were all-fibreglass & according to
reviews "built as strong as battleships". So, the west-coast boats are
heavier, & sit deeper in the water - less freeboard. That's apparently the
source ofthe difference in our 2 drawings; check the height of the top of
the transom (at boat centerline) from the water, & compare with our 2
drawings.

The Monitor is made by Scanmar (www.selfsteer.com) and they do not publish their drawings on the web - only list what they have on file - but I will send Tim the images so he can host them and put them up if he wants.

Non Triton Tritons? Interesting... That is the first time I have heard of that. I would be curious to learn more.

- Britton

[Tim]

The main difference I see in the two Triton Monitor windvane drawings are the freeboard height shown. As a result, the mounting for the vane is slightly different in each. I think what is ultimately important is that you, or anyone, obtain the accurate measurements from your own boat before committing to any setup in particular.

The two drawings also show a slight difference in the way the deck and taffrails are drawn, which might be more of a result of the specific situation for which the drawing was produced. In any event, Monitor will engineer the supporting structure for your specific boat and measurements.

Here are the two drawings.

First, here is the "Triton 28-6" drawing:


Here is the "Triton 28" drawing"


The biggest difference is the freeboard shown. Compare the waterlines between the two, and the measure scale to the right.

[bcooke]

Judging by the discrepency you found between your scribed waterline and your actual waterline on Glissando I think I should keep this on the back burner for awhile until I am sure of where the boat floats. Hand sailing alone to the Bahamas... another reason not to be too tied to a southern trip this fall.

Unless maybe I can discern some old water stains.... (the dream lives!)

-Britton

[Dave, 397]

Yep, the aft deck and taffrails are indeed different between Pearson and Aeromarine Tritons...I have been reworking that area of the boat and was studying the gear layout on a guy's Aero just the other day.

Dave

PS--Have you looked at the Sailomat? It's a lot more compact, lighter, and probably a bit less fussy in the mounting height. They certainly do not appear as rugged, but I know a fellow who has been to Hawaii and back twice with one and is quite pleased with it.

[Tim]

Here is #384 Atom and her Monitor windvane installation. Atom is a Pearson-Built (EC) Triton.




And #96 Head Over Heels also has one. HOH is an Aeromarine-built (WC) Triton.





I think the installation height is rather accepting of some changes in load waterline, but nonetheless all efforts should be made to have the framework setup to accommodate the most normal load waterline, whatever that is in each case. Moderate changes from there shouldn't be a problem.

Where any individual Triton actually floats is something that varies widely, and is dependent on the amount of gear on board, and where it is stowed, as well as apparent idosyncracies in each boat's construction and inherent weight distribution. There's no "right" place--it will be where it will be.

[bcooke]

... and probably the boat will get heavier over time with the inevitable modifications and additions. I need to do some more thinking on this.

I forgot to answer the Sailomat question too. Sail-o-mats are good, as are Aries, Southern Crosses, and a host of others. Any one of ten or so would work fine. I was investigating the Monitor because it is perhaps the most common, provides ample steering power, is strong and well built, has great customer support, and is said to be quick and easy to install. When I get serious I might start looking for deals. Or maybe just whip out the Mastercard and have a new Monitor installed in six to ten days.

I have a few projects to complete before I worry about this one though. A two month solo trip to Maine a few years ago convinced me of the value of an alternate steering system. Sailing is so much easier and fun when you are not tied to the tiller all day, every day. No more heaving to if you are hungry or need to answer nature's calls. Just watch those wind shifts!

-Britton

[Tony]

Watch those wind shifts indeed, I just read in latitude 38 about a guy who was sailing 30 nm off the coast of the big island in Hawaii, that went below to make some tea but fell asleep...he woke up on the rocks and lost his boat.

[Tim]

Just watch those wind shifts!

And, in Maine, watch the lobster pots! Self-steering is great, but unless you're well offshore in Maine, you're prone to catch a pot unless you're hand-steering in most areas. Constant course changes are necessary to avoid them. This is why I have yet to buy and install an autopilot, though I often think of it. But I just don't see it as being much of a savior around here, given how much vigilence is required to avoid the pots during most passages.

For coastal cruising, I would say an electronic autopilot makes the most sense, and can also be used during the inevitable motoring periods. A windvane is the choice offshore, though.

I think I would choose Monitor if and when I go for a windvane. They are truly tested by those who truly need solid self-steering, and I just like the way they're put together. Note that the Monitor is barely heavier than the Sailomat--58# sticks in my mind as its weight, though I couldn't find any data. It looks a lot heavier than it actually is.

[bcooke]

I love cruising in Maine and I hate lobster pots. I am a man much conflicted.

The monitor does have the ability to quickly raise the lower half out of the water which helps a little and is another plus. I understand the tubing is larger but thinner which makes it look bigger while keeping the weight down.

I think a windvane would be more useful on a passage to Maine more than a coastal cruise in Maine. The scenery isn't as nice where I am currently based but thankfully the lobster pots are far fewer. Unless you are coming into Gloucester harbor and then it is just like being downeast.

I agree that an autopilot would be better on a coastal cruise and ideally (and ultimately as the money tree bears fruit) I would like to have both. I am looking forward to getting some more blue water experience (gradually) and I don't have much of an electrical capacity at the moment which is why I am thinking about the windvane. Plus I am just shopping around and prioritizing my ideas.

I noticed too, that the Monitor mounted on [/i]Atom is not supported against the transom like the drawings recommend. I wonder how that is working out. I expect it has been well tested.

-Britton

[bcooke]

Oops, forgot to un-italisize.

-B

[Tim]

I think a windvane would be more useful on a passage to Maine more than a coastal cruise in Maine.

Absolutely. And for heading to other areas, and for other long passages. It's the long passages, after all, that are more tiring, and that require one to leave the tiller more frequently for all those other needs. And offshore, the windvane makes a lot of sense. I would have a windvane in a second if I thought I truly needed one. For now, I can put it off, since I just don't do the sort of offshore, open-water passages that would require fitting one. As soon as I do, you can bet I'll be looking into one.

I motored about 30 miles by myself last Tuesday to get the boat home after our 4th of July cruise. Heidi had to get off the boat Monday so she could return to work on time on Tuesday, but we were fogged in. Powering that long alone was sure boring! And tiresome, as the prop wash really forces my rudder over--this was exacerbated by the large swell of the day, which forced additional steering effort. I would have loved to be able to not hold the tiller, and often thought about an electric autopilot. But I was dodging pots all day, and could never have--and would never have--truly left the tiller unattended as a result. But it would have been nice to relieve the pressure against my legs (I like to straddle the tiller while powering), even for a short while. Now, 30-mile, 5+ hour motors are not routine for me, but obviously they do happen. It's these situations alone that make me consider the electric autopilot. For a couple hours, no problem. With someone else on board, no problem. For regular daysails, no problem.

If I were doing most of my cruising alone, I would have something, for sure. And for long passages, I would have something. Having both electric and windvane would be ideal; which one came first would depend on the greater need given the type of cruising. For me, that would probably mean the electric first, followed by the windvane. One cool thing you can do with a Monitor, and possibly other types, is hook your electric tillerpilot to the Monitor paddle, while leaving the regular control lines hooked up to the tiller. Because of the mechanical advantage of the Monitor servo gear, the electric pilot has to work less hard to correct course when hooked in this manner.

I noticed too, that the Monitor mounted on Atom is not supported against the transom like the drawings recommend. I wonder how that is working out. I expect it has been well tested.

I remember reading something James wrote about this once. His feeling was that those braces were unnecessary given the way the rest of the frame was mounted. As I recall, his mounting is somewhat different than that shown in the drawings. Drop him an email and ask: james@atomvoyages.com. If he's around, he'll answer.

I love cruising in Maine and I hate lobster pots.

They can be a pain. I curse them sometimes. It's all I know, though. Virtually all my sailing has been in Maine or New England, and therefore I've been dealing with--and accepting--lobster pots forever. I can't imagine how clean and clear sailing would be without them! I'm just so used to sailing (and motoring) around them that I hardly think about it any more. One definitely has to keep constant watch for them, and make the necessary--and regular and frequent--course changes to avoid them on the proper side. It's not hard--but it requires more attention than many visitors (and often locals) are used to paying.

The cruising grounds are worth it, though!

[James384]

Britton alerted me to your discussion here. I originally installed the monitor as supplied new from the factory according to a sketch I gave them of Atom's transom. They supplied me with those one type for all boats, universal brackets, which worked alright. Several years later I decided to "improve" the mount as seen in the photo posted in this thread. I wanted something less bulky. It's plenty strong but the modification is more work than most people would find worthwhile. I was happy to get the lower brackets off the transom though. The reson the standard brackets need 4-point mounts is because of their loose design. I can easily remove my two lower supports and use it with only the two upper supports, but the lowers help reduce the chance of damage if the vane gets banged into in a marina. Also, the're handy to climb up from the water or hang onto when swimming and they do less damage to dinghies with them in place.

One of the benefits of removing the engine and prop and filling in the cutout where the prop was and filling that small gap between rudder and keel is that I can sail over any traps or markers and never snag anything.
Rarely, something might hang onto the vane rudder, but that is easily knocked off with a foot, boathook, or tripping the rudder up for a moment.

Electric auto pilots are better in rivers or when in close inshore areas where holding a course line is vital. Otherwise, even if I'm only a couple miles offshore, I prefer to use the windvane.

James
#384

[Howard]

James....as one "bottom sanding grunt" to another.....what kind of performance do you get with your Monitor off the wind? On broad reaches and running courses...does she oscillate or hold a steady course?

About how much wind or boat speed do you need before it kicks in?

The reason I ask about the Monitor....I have built a vane gear for my little boat, and it does work....but for a long distance cruiser...I'd want something a big more sturdy. Anyway....one of the engineers who helped me design it advocates a vane angle of 30 degrees, and reversing the vane, so that it hangs upside down. You have to play with this....but in theory, it does give a better response. Off the wind....it gears it down....and into the wind, the heeling of the boat increases the output of the vane to account for the weather helm. But none of the off the shelf manufacturers use this design. One would have to modify something like the Monitor...or build your own....to get one. But if the performance of the existing vane gears works....perhaps one doesn't need it?

I've also thought about gearing the vane gear up or down by moving the attachment point on the tiller arm fore and aft....but I'm told that affect is not the same.

Anyway.....just curious how well your vane gear steers the Triton.

Howard

[bcooke]

James mentioned to me that he would be moving Atom up the coast for about week and will be away from the internet. Hopefully he will check back in soon.

I have almost forgotten what life without internet is like...

-Britton

[bcooke]

James mentioned to me that he would be moving Atom up the coast for about week and will be away from the internet. Hopefully he will check back in soon.

I have almost forgotten what life without internet is like...

-Britton

[bcooke]

James mentioned to me that he would be moving Atom up the coast for about week and will be away from the internet. Hopefully he will check back in soon.

I have almost forgotten what life without internet is like...

-Britton

[James384]

Howard, the monitor works well enough on Atom that I've never thought of trying to improve its performance beyond using the optional light air blade when needed and attaching a light 1/8-inch elastic strap between the lead counterweight and horizontal frame below it to dampen the vane movement in light airs.

Performance in strong winds (say 25-40 knots) and big seas is excellent, though a smaller storm blade steadies her a bit more and helps prevent loss of the standard wind blade if a wave should break over it.

Each boat is different of course, but in light air, as long as I have 3-4 knots of apparent wind, the monitor will steer the boat. How bad she yaws depends on the sea/wind/sail combination. As an example of a difficult steering job, running under spinnaker and full main in a light swell doing 2-3 knots with an apparent wind of about 3 knots, I can get the monitor to hold her steady enough to prevent a broach, provided I have the light air blade and the elastic dampener strap attached.

I've found the monitor needs about 2 knots of boat speed to reliably steer, though sometimes I can balance the sails well enough that it steers with as little as one knot of boat speed. Upwind is easier, of course.

I have a few more comments on self-steering at the link below:

http://atomvoyages.com/atom/faq.htm#10.

I think Howard is on the Windvane Forum, but here's the link if anyone else is interested:

http://cruisenews.net/cgi-bin/windvane/windvane.pl

James
#384 Atom