found a bristol 24 cutter, have questions.

Post your comments and thoughts about any and all classic sailboats here.
Post Reply
ghostwriter247
Master Varnisher
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:14 pm
Boat Name: The Celtic Cross
Boat Type: 67 bristol 27
Location: Iowa

found a bristol 24 cutter, have questions.

Post by ghostwriter247 »

I found a sailstar (bristol) 24 that i am seriously considering. Its a lot of work though. There are a couple oddities though. I am pretty new to sailing so I might use terms incorrectly. Please feel free to make corrections so I can learn. Ill state up front that i know its expensive to fix some of this and will prolly lose money but i love the boat and have the time, and love to tinker

It looks to be rigged as a cutter! was this an after add on and if so can I take it down?

The standing rigging looks beefy though. THeir are two headstays in addition to the mid mast cutter sail stay. I didnt look too close but they appear to be add ons as well.

There are also 4 shrouds(?) at spreader level and of course two up to the top.

Bad news is the spreaders are cracked about an inch out from the mast and rewelded. Should I have the replaced?

The entire cockpit floor needs to be recored, but i can do that

Is the Dual head stay system standard? I know a picture is worth a thousand words but unfortunately I had dead batteries in my camera when i got there Could you take down the staysail stay down and run dual head sails? is this what they call a bermudan rig?

Its a lot of work but then again a lot of fun as well. Thansk in advance for the help
User avatar
Tim
Shipwright Extraordinaire
Posts: 5708
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
Boat Name: Glissando
Boat Type: Pearson Triton
Location: Whitefield, ME
Contact:

Re: found a bristol 24 cutter, have questions.

Post by Tim »

ghostwriter247 wrote:It looks to be rigged as a cutter! was this an after add on and if so can I take it down?
Yes, it's an add-on, and you can take it down if you're so inclined (and you should be, in my opinion). That staysail must be about 5 square feet on that little boat...
ghostwriter247 wrote:The standing rigging looks beefy though. THeir are two headstays in addition to the mid mast cutter sail stay. I didnt look too close but they appear to be add ons as well.
Clearly someone thought they had a circumnavigator on their hands. There need be only one headstay. Depending on how this is rigged, you can probably just easily remove one, and almost certainly do want to remove the second stay. Again, pictures would tell the tale effectively if you get the chance.

From the sound of the "upgrades" so far, I'd bet almost anything that all the rigging wire is oversized, too--just a lot of excess weight aloft that serves no purpose.
ghostwriter247 wrote:There are also 4 shrouds(?) at spreader level and of course two up to the top.
That's normal: uppers and double lowers (fore and aft).
ghostwriter247 wrote:Bad news is the spreaders are cracked about an inch out from the mast and rewelded. Should I have the replaced?
That depends entirely upon the quality of the weld. Spreaders are a bad place for guesswork. The repair might be sound, but you have to do what makes you comfortable. If I were in your shoes, I'd consider the suspect unless I knew the reputation of the outfit that repaired the spreader. Since you probably have no idea who or what repaired the spreader, therefore I'd suggest you consider it suspect pending solid information to the contrary.
ghostwriter247 wrote:Is the Dual head stay system standard? Could you take down the staysail stay down and run dual head sails?
Side-by-side headstays, to my understanding (having never dealt specificially with them myself), reportedly cause all sorts of tensioning issues and rarely can be made to work effectively. You don't need or want them; rerig with a single headstay.
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

You may find it easy to replace the spreaders if the stock is simple, like tubing. Buy new stock from Dyer or similar mast makers. Our old M 27's were that easy.

Double headstays are for racing, to change out the jibs quickly. Or, less likely, for setting double jibs for sailing downwind. It was an idea that you'd read about in Eric Hiscock's books, for example; he'd rig the sheets to pull the tiller and Wanderer would self-steer for free. It was also a racing idea whereby you'd raise both jibs but then flip one to the other tack in lieu of a spinnaker: Lungstrom (sp??) Rig. Dad had the Morgan 27 rigged with the double headstay for racing, but it did not last long.

Surely an old Bristol 24 is bulletproof so the cracks you report are likely cosmetic or at least not serious.

Surely an old Bristol 24 was born with a very simple, not to say inexpensive, rig. Thus, no cutter stay, nor double headstay.
User avatar
Rachel
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:59 pm

Post by Rachel »

Quetzalsailor wrote:Surely an old Bristol 24 is bulletproof so the cracks you report are likely cosmetic or at least not serious.
I would say that probably the cracks are nothing serious, but I wouldn't say surely until I'd seen more.

I don't want to sound doom & gloomy, but I'm not convinced that the older fiberglass boats are always "bulletproof."

When I was boat shopping I actually saw a Bristol 24 wherein the top of a cradle block had caved into the hull! Now that no doubt had a LOT more to do with the way the blocks were set, and perhaps a snow load on the boat, than it did the fact that it was a Bristol 24, but these things are possible, so I would want to see the cracks (or a photo).

I've never seen a cutter-rigged B-24, and I agree with Tim that you're probably a lot better off without it. If anything, the upper termination of the cutter stay could be putting a "point" load on the mast if you were sailing with just the staysail (don't even TELL me they put running backstays on too!).

They are a nice-looking design to my eye.

"Good" ones normally sell for under $5000, so be sure that you really do want a project before you plunge in on this particular one. (When I say "good," that means they still need a lot of updating, but are functional.)

A couple of things to check for:

1) The chainplates come through the deck and land on the bulkheads, which they are bolted through. I've seen a few that had quite a bit of water damage there. You can easily see this at the forward end of the main saloon.

2) If you pull up the floorboards and the ballast is "right there," it may be the iron (steel?) and concrete version. Not that that's a deal breaker, but there were some made with lead ballast; you can tell those because there is a bit of a bilge beneath the cabin sole.

3) They came in dinette and "standard" versions. The dinette version has more bulkhead under the mast (because the aisle is off center). The standard is fine too - it probably depends on which layout you happen to like.

Welcome to the madness!

Rachel
ghostwriter247
Master Varnisher
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:14 pm
Boat Name: The Celtic Cross
Boat Type: 67 bristol 27
Location: Iowa

Post by ghostwriter247 »

Thanks for the replies, guys. So here is a little more information on just how large a project it is. Its a ton of work but i do love the lines and at the end of the day you dont ever get your money back i think, you get enjoyment or i do at least

I was hoping i could take down the cutter stay and getting rid of the double forestay will help out on cost for new rigging as well.

The cockpit floor needs recored all the way to the tiller entrance. it seems to get solid about 6 inches away but we'll see

The mast showed no deflection on the deck or interior arch (i have the deck stepped version.

There is one weak spot in the deck over the aft part of the v berth. Eventually Ill need to carve it out and recore it

No motor.

The bilge is full of water but then again the companion way hatch was slighlty open and the boards were in the cockpit. about an inch had pooled near the v berth as it must be slanted on its keel. The access is in the v berth though? is this normal for bristols or indicative of the sailstars

Oddly enough the v berth is dry, though if ya know what your looking for there is some minimal leakage around the ports.

The bulkheads appear solid but there is rust on both the interior upper shroud chainplates and the exterior lower shrouds Very little though so hopefully I can rebed and replace Deck seems solid at these points. I figure if im gonna repaint the cabin top i might as well remove and rebed all the deck hardware.

all the running rigging needs replaced. Diddo for cleats and cams and winches. Ill prolly try to oufit it with all lines led aft in a more modern fashion. Any body know if a cabin mount traveler would work well here? Ive tossed around the idea of mounting the winches on the cabin top as well but dont know if this is good or bad for my design.

What are some of the pros and cons of cabin top versus cockpit side placement on winches? I assume I would have to epoxy in a flat plate to mount the winches on the curved roof right?

New bottom job and the deck needs stripped and repainted as the non skid is peeling off in chunks

SPreaders have cracks welded so ill prolly replace them.

Interior? not even going there, strip it out and replace it all.

Wiring? same deal.

Rudder only seemed to have a 1/4 to 1/2 inch lateral play. Does anyone have a diagram of how those work on the bristols so I know how to rebuild it? I figure whiles its out i might as well.

And i guess after all that i might as well get sails too! LOL

Ton of work but i can do it all, ton of money but if we worried about money we wouldnt saill classics would we? LOL

Mainly Id like to start on a smaller boat like this just so that the money i lose isnt monstrous. What can i say, I tinker its what I do. After a couple cars restorations and motorcycles im on to sailboats i guess.

Pride of a job well done? priceless
User avatar
Rachel
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:59 pm

Post by Rachel »

ghostwriter247 wrote:The mast showed no deflection on the deck or interior arch (i have the deck stepped version.
Just in case my mast comments gave the wrong idea (I probably wasn't too clear), I believe all of the Bristol 24 iterations had deck-stepped masts. There were two different layouts belowdecks though:

1) The "standard" has a central aisle with settees at the after end (running partially under the cockpit), then two small galley flats port and starboard just aft of the main bulkhead. So in these boats the mast is stepped right over the "aisle" to the v-berth, similar to Tritons and the like.

2) The "dinette" has a dinette (really just a wide settee) to port, running the full length of the saloon; and then a fore-and-aft galley counter to starboard. I think that version has a quarter berth running under the cockpit on the starboard side aft of the galley, with perhaps a couple of feet of it protruding into the saloon. Aft of the dinette on the portside, there is a small door to access the "under the cockpit bench" space on the port side. In this version the main bulkhead opening to the v-berth is slightly off center to starboard, so there is bulkhead under the mast (or close to it, anyway).

I don't think any of the iterations had cockpit bench lockers, so the access to that space is either from the "feet" of the settee berths, or through the "door" in the dinette version.

Some had an outboard in a lazarette well (most, I think); a few had an inboard.

Yep, another nerd here.

R.
ghostwriter247
Master Varnisher
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:14 pm
Boat Name: The Celtic Cross
Boat Type: 67 bristol 27
Location: Iowa

Post by ghostwriter247 »

now worries. The one i am looking at is the standard model.
David

Post by David »

You can find more info about the B24 here:

http://www.bristolowners.org/24/bristol24.html

Good luck with her,

David
dcstrng
Bottom Paint Application Technician
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:40 pm
Location: Colonial Beach, VA

Re: found a bristol 24 cutter, have questions.

Post by dcstrng »

ghostwriter247 wrote: Is the Dual head stay system standard?
I’m a little late in coming to this, but am not aware of any Bristol (or, Sailstar) 24s with the rig you describe, although I’ve seen one or two (on the Net, see: http://blog.oldragbaggersonline.com/200 ... ol-24.aspx ) that has been modified, either with double lowers and/or an inner forestay – without a complete re-rig, I don’t think the B24 will ever be a cutter, the proportion of main to fore triangle isn’t close – the B24 is of the old school with proportionately large main and smallish fore-triangle…

Not that yours couldn’t have been re-rigged, but to end up with a true cutter (as versus a double headsail sloop) I assume they’d have to move the main bulkhead, which carries the mast loading as well as the uppers and lowers in the factory configuration. We’ve been thinking of doing double lowers on ours (in another year, got enough to stay busy at the moment). The bulkhead on B24s occasional ended up in structural decay due to deck leaks so running chain-plates (doubles) from the hull, rather than the bulkhead, is not an unusual fix…


See: http://www.sailblogs.com/member/awing/

Sure would like to see pics…
Larry
ghostwriter247
Master Varnisher
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:14 pm
Boat Name: The Celtic Cross
Boat Type: 67 bristol 27
Location: Iowa

Post by ghostwriter247 »

SO THE SAGA CONTINUES....

I wimped out and bought a really good hunter 25.5 at a steal. you can see the work i started under sailboat resto on my shutterfly site. I had it all of a week and some drunk ass ventilated the port side at a bout 230 in the morning on the third in a hit and run. So now im back in the looking for a boat biz. so the sailstar is looking better and better. I got a little sidetracked with big boats. its hull number 206 I should have pics up on my website http://www.ghostwriter247.shutterfly.com in a bit.

Shes in need of attention but what a classic. its just money right? LOL

ps what size rope are used on the halyards and sheets?

josh
dcstrng
Bottom Paint Application Technician
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:40 pm
Location: Colonial Beach, VA

Post by dcstrng »

ghostwriter247 wrote:SO THE SAGA CONTINUES....

some drunk ass ventilated the port side at a bout 230 in the morning on the third in a hit and run. So now im back in the looking for a boat biz. so the sailstar is looking better and better... ps what size rope are used on the halyards and sheets?

josh
Ouch, well that's nasty... sorry to hear about that, and it sure looks like you had a running start on a nice restoration...

Our B24 halyards and sheets are 3/8 (with cable tails on the halyards). I'm going to get a lighter set of 1/4 or 5/16 sheets for use with the drifter, cuz 3/8 is too heavy and weighs the clew in light air, but I like the 3/8 for normal use as the B24 will carry working canvas up to 20kts or so -- unreefed if you're lazy like me...
Larry
boyle
Bottom Sanding Grunt
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:18 pm
Boat Name: La Boheme
Boat Type: Bristol 24

Re: found a bristol 24 cutter, have questions.

Post by boyle »

Double head stay is not standard. The 4 lower stays were only on some of the newer boats most had 2 lowers. The boat was not built as a cutter rig so that was an addition by a previous owner.
Stephen
S/V La Boheme B24
Post Reply