Looking for a new boat

[Clinton B Chase]

Design parameters:

-22 to 27 feet LOA
-a daysailor/weekender
-room for 4-6 in cockpit (i.e., a lot of cockpit is what we want)
-capable of coastal cruising for a couple days stretch
-can take some open water sailing (don't mind getting a little wet)
-ratio wise, more cockpit to cabin
-cabin can be spartan but room for 2-3 would be great (or 2 adults/2 small kids)
-a bathroom of some sort...can be basic but not too crude
-place to put a gimballed stove, icebox not required
-must be goood looking, don't mind a little wood to take care of
-sailing performance must be excellent
-engine not necessary but would like something to retrofit with either an electric engine or a small inboard deisel (may be convinced to go with an outboard bracket, esp if these Torqueedo electric outboards are as good as I hear)
-I am partial to Alberg designs


actual boat find can be a project boat but mostly cosmetic with a small structural repair or two okay...looking to spend 0-3K. I'd like to not have to transport far to my home in Portland, Maine.

Thanks all.

Cheers,
Clint

[FloatingMoneyPit]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Commander.
Bristol 27 weekender version, Sea Sprite 23, Kittiwake 23, Cape Dory 25 (non "D" version)...can't think of many boats over 22 feet that were mostly cockpit. Cabins seem to sell.
There's a guy who lurks here occasionally that can make you a spiffy daysailor out of a Triton...*




*Actual materials and labor may exceed $3000 subject to market forces. Void where prohibited, while supplies last, limit one per customer per visit

[Rachel]

Here's a Bristol 27 "Weekender" for sale. It doesn't meet all your criteria, as it's in New Jersey and is listed at $5500, but this is probably a good time of year to bargain.

Here is a link to the ad in Good Old Boat magazine's classifieds. It has an outboard motor in a well, and the long "Commander-like" cockpit.

I don't see a way to link to the Weekender ad directly, but it's about 1/4 of the way down the page linked below.

http://www.goodoldboat.com/resources_fo ... r_sale.php

[John, CD28]

It's tough to beat the 24' Bristol Corsair for value. Sometimes they are priced very close to your target range. Sweet looking little boats too.

Several are listed here, some asking just $2k: http://www.sailboatlistings.com/sailboats/Bristol

They boast full standing headroom, much more comfortable than the 4' 10" headroom in the Cape Dory 25 (non D) I sailed for years.

Corsair Website: http://members.aol.com/bristolyht/brist ... tol24.html

Good luck,
John

[Rachel]

The Bristol 24/Sailstar Corsair is a nice boat, but they don't have a very roomy cockpit in my opinion. Not that it's inadequate, but cabin space looks to have been a priority in the design.

I looked at a few, but ultimately took them off my list because they don't have cockpit bench lockers, which I really like to have (not that this last bit applies to Clinton's search).

[Peter]

I'll chime in here and suggest the Albin Vega. They have a very secure high-sided cockpit with a ton of room, but they may be too large for you in the cabin area LOL ;-)

[kendall]

It's tough to beat the 24' Bristol Corsair for value. Sometimes they are priced very close to your target range. Sweet looking little boats too.

Several are listed here, some asking just $2k: http://www.sailboatlistings.com/sailboats/Bristol

Good luck,
John

There's one for sale in new york for $1000. from descriptions, photos and other peoples opinions I solicited on that particular boat it's in very nice ready to sail shape.

Also a bristol 22 for sale in Ohio, neds a bit of work, but the owner is anxious to get rid of it before haul out, seems to be motivated, I think he's moving. Test sailed it on lake Erie, and seemed to be solid (owner didn't appreciate me jumping around on the deck for some reason) but does need quite a bit of cosmetic work. He's come down from $1500 to $1000, and sent me an email earlier this week says he'd take $850 for it.

Was bouncing between the two, but decided on an Ariel that was nearby instead, costs for me would have been higher for either of the bristosl to get home, even though the Ariel had a much higher purchase price.

Would have been more fun getting one of them, nearest would have been an 800 mile sail, farthest would have been through the Erie canal then all the way around Michigan, would have been fun, but too late in the season to be taking an untried boat on that long of a trip.

Ken.

[Hirilondë]

I don't think you will find an interior with an enclosed head on any boat with a large cockpit and under 28 feet long. The 27 footers I know with reasonable interior accommodations have adequate cockpits, but not large ones. I think you have found a few details that will need some compromise. My Renegade seats 4 under sail comfortably, 6 are very cozy but doable. The Cape Dory 27 and Bristol 27 are similar in that regards. I think you will find all 27 footers with enclosed heads to be about the same. Adding another 1 foot or so to the cockpit means something down below has to go, and it is often the enclosed head.

[Clinton B Chase]

TX for thoughts....I did not mean an enclosed head in my first post, so that is fine if it is the boxed kind under the v-berth, etc.

The Bristol 27 is nice....good idea. The others just don't have the cockpit I want.

The B27 is good food for thought...tx,

Clint

[MikeD]

Excellent choice! ;)

Just take the Ariel for an 800 mile sail and pretend you're taking delivery...

[Rachel]

If this is already clear, ignore me, but I couldn't tell by reading the thread.

The usual Bristol 27 is more Tritonish in proportion. That is, it has the typical cabin with doghouse, layout below decks, and cockpit size.

The Bristol 27 "Weekender" (like the blue one above) has a low cabin with more minimal (but still usable) accomodations, and an extra-long (still self-bailing) cockpit. So it's related to the "normal" Bristol 27 in the same way that the Commander is related to the Ariel. And to a lesser degree, the Ensign to the Electra.

Rachel

[Clinton B Chase]

Folks, I will be looking at an S & S Sailmaster at some point. Anybody seen the boat/have info?

Clint

[FloatingMoneyPit]

Don't know much about it personally, but I've enjoyed the musings of Jack Sherwood, a contributing editor to Soundings. His monthly column "Bay Tripper" usually revolves around his Sailmaster and some issues have featured photos. Very cool boat. If I were you I'd consider shooting him an email; he is a writer, after all! I recall essays about living aboard(!), Chesapeake cruises, and devising a reading chair for the small cabin.
Search the story archives for "sailmaster" on http://www.soundingspub.com

[David]

Here is a Bistrol 27 in MD on Craigslist: 4K and red topsides.

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/ ... 33713.html

She sounds well cared for.

David

[Bluenose]

-sailing performance must be excellent

Clint,

My favorite limited coastal cruiser would have to be the Sparkman & Stephens designed Dolphin (actually a Bill Shaw design) built my O'Day, Yankee and Pacific.

They can be a bit hard to find, but they are a performance MORC (Midget Ocean Race Club) boats with a great pedigree and a good builder (Yankee). They have a pretty neat outboard well that I think might fit an electric outboard quite nicely and free up the cabin for storage instead of an inboard diesel. Their Sail Area to Displacement ration is almost 18 without using an overlapping genoa. That combined with their keel centerboard design should provide great light air sailing performance which would help limit the amount of use for an electric engine and save your battery charge.

I did find one for sail in Maryland:

http://www.internetboats.com/boatfiles/26493.html

And here are a few photos so you can see if they pass you "looks" test.





I looked at this boat and seriously considered buying her.

And here is the link to the Dolphin 24 owners site:

http://www.dolphin24.org

Sailing performance is my thing. I don't race so it is not about speed necessarily. For me it is about being able to sail in the widest variety of wind conditions. I just love to sail. So to that end I have compiled loads of data and notes on sailing performance of many different sailboats in my effort to find boats that sail smartly. So let me know if you have any questions. I will provide any info I might have.

Good look with you search.

Cheers, Bill

[Bluenose]

Clint,

I stumbled on this review of the Sailmaster 22 by Jack Hornor while I was trying to find what the Sailmaster looked like. I thought I would pass it along in case you hadn't seen it.

Bill

Sailmaster 22
Reviewed By: Jack Hornor
In the August 2002 issue

The origins of the Sailmaster 22 are European and date back to the early 1960s, but her connection to the Chesapeake Bay was immortalized in 1974 when writer/photographer Robert de Gast made a circumnavigation of the Delmarva peninsula in his Sailmaster 22, Slick Ca’m. In 1975 the Johns Hopkins University Press published the account of his trip Western Wind Eastern Shore, now a classic among Chesapeake Bay sailors. The book is out of print but is still treasured by Bay sailors.

The Sailmaster 22, designed by Sparkman and Stephens, was built in Holland and imported into the United States by Sailmaster Inc. of Shelter Island, NY from the early 1960s until the mid 1970s.

The Sailmaster’s overall length is 22 feet, her waterline runs 16 feet, six inches, and her beam seven feet. Her centerboard design draws just two feet, four inches with the board raised and five feet with the board lowered. There were two factory versions of the Sailmaster, although over the years many 22s have been altered and customized. The Daysailer originally featured a longer cockpit, a shorter cabin house, and a two-berth arrangement below. The Weekender originally included a larger cabin, a complete galley with ice box, sink with fresh water system, and head. The Weekender also included four berths (two quarterberths under the cockpit seats).

The Sailmaster was built in the early days of fiberglass boat construction when weight was not nearly the concern that it is today, and the solid fiberglass lay-up of the hull is typically more substantial than found on more modern boats of the same size. Typical of older fiberglass boats, some deterioration, called hydrolyzing, of the fiberglass composite below the waterline is common. This is a gradual dissolving of the resins from years of being immersed in water. Severe cases are rare, and the condition seldom raises any serious concerns for the structural integrity of these boats.

Prospective owners should keep in mind that these boats, if not already there, are rapidly approaching 40 years old and are likely to require a significant amount of work to restore or maintain their condition. Some of the more common necessary repairs to expect include removing years of build up of antifouling bottom finishes, restoring deteriorating topside finishes and repairing areas of the decks and cockpit that have been weakened by water penetration into the balsa wood core. Perhaps the biggest maintenance headache will be keeping the steel plate centerboard free of rust and corrosion and working properly.

On deck the Sailmaster 22 has a large cockpit that can easily accommodate a party of four for daysailing. The cabin trunk is low, and there is excellent visibility forward from the cockpit. The vast majority of Sailmasters carry a bow pulpit but not lifelines (although some S22s carry retrofitted lifelines).

The low cabin house, minimum freeboard and attractive sheer that give Sailmaster 22 her handsome appearance also restrict the accommodation space, although the designers have made good use of the space below.

Auxiliary power for the Sailmaster 22 is provided by an outboard motor mounted in a lazarette locker. This method of engine installation is advantageous, because it preserves the clean lines of the boat, although it may be necessary to raise the hatch while motoring in order to provide adequate ventilation for the engine to operate properly. Because valuable storage space is lost, a number of boats have converted the motor well to storage and added an outboard motor bracket to the transom. A five to eight hp motor is sufficient although the performance of any small outboard-powered sailboat depends greatly the on wind and sea condition. In gusty winds and choppy sea, performance under power will be frustrating and can be challenging if confined to a narrow channel.
With a displacement/length ratio of 362 and a sail area/displacement ration of 15.9, the Sailmaster 22, as one would expect, needs a bit of a breeze (preferably better than six knots true) to get her going. The Sailmaster is always a balanced and responsive handler. However, with the full keel and attached rudder, the 22 will not respond or tack as quickly as a fin keel-spade rudder design. Performance improves noticeably as the wind picks up, and the 22 tracks well and is easily balanced.
T
he Sailmaster 22 is not a boat for everyone, but Soundings’ Annapolis-based Senior Writer Jack Sherwood has actively sailed his for 18 years. Fawcetts’ staffer Joe Fernon lives aboard a 22 in Annapolis’s Weems Creek. She is best suited to sailors who have the time, talent and inclination necessary to maintain an older boat. Her price makes her a great bargain for sailors looking for a stout and handsome daysailer capable of an occasional overnight or weekend cruise.

--

Reviewed in the pages of SpinSheet Magazine by Jack Hornor. Jack Hornor is an Annapolis-based marine surveyor and naval architect. He can be reached at (410) 451-8133, http://www.msdco.com

[Clinton B Chase]

I like the Dolphin a lot.

The crux to this idea of even getting a boat is keeping cost WAY down. This 22 footer, the Sailmaster, has a tabernacle and it will likely be possible to step the mast without needing to pay a yard to do it...also it can be launched at a ramp and can fit in my driveway easily, and perhaps in my shop for the winter doing the work that needs to be done! So, the main annual cost will be keeping a mooring, after the initial spending on the gear, the trailer, and the restoration.

I'll also be seeing a Sea Sprite 23 this weekend.

I must be crazy doing this all again.

Cheers,
Clint

[Bluenose]

Clint,

Sounds great. I understand that everyone's requirements are varied and that mine are certainly outside the norm. But I thought I would pass along my ideas in any case.

I can pass along one other experience. My good friend Craig has a Cape Dory Typhoon. We launched it this Spring off his trailer with and a pretty long extension and last Monday we hauled it out. After doing it twice Craig will probably pay the yard to launch it next year. The Typhoon only draws 2 1/2 ft or so but it is still a bit of a challenge getting her on and off the trailer. The other thing that we have both talked about is the depreciated cost of the trailer. Dunking them in salt water twice a year, unless you are meticulous about flushing, will used up you trailer at some rate that you might want to think about. It cost us $150 to raise the mast and launch Bolero. For $300 per year I wouldn't even think of putting our new Triad trailer in the salt water (even if I could :). With my old Bluenose, which was similar in size to the boats you are considering, the cost was about $125 per year and I never was tempted to ramp launch her either.

Of course your mileage may vary.

Cheers and happy hunting,

Bill

[rshowarth]

Well, If you REALLY like the Dolphin:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1960-24- ... 4506.c0.m245