I live in the Pacific Northwest and many of the boats I'd like to purchase (Alberg 30 and the like) are located on the east coast. However, the Rawson 30 was built in the area and there are a few for sale rather cheaply. Could anyone comment on the design of this boat? Not much is known about them outside the Pacific NW but I've heard only good things and at least one has circumnavigated.
But, concrete in the bildge?
http://members.aol.com/rawson30/
Thanks,
E.
Rawson 30'?
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Dave, 397
I am a bit concerned about the concrete/iron punching mix in an encapsulated keel. Cheoy Lee used the same setup for a lot of their boats, too.
I looked at Rawson 30's, and there were a few areas of the boat I didn't find satisfactory...but everyone has their own needs and opinions, right? I just didn't feel that the boat was as well-done as it is claimed to be in comparison to an old Pearson or to a Cheoy Lee, for example. I was also spooked out by the commentary I found on an owners' site about troubles with the concrete.
Now, I know that my friend Perry's Offshore 27 (AKA Cheoy Lee Cadet) has the concrete in there...he hasn't seen any troubles. I did also have a fellow mention in discussion on one newsgroup or another having spent a few days helping a friend jackhammer and remove the concrete in the same model boat due to some kind of (If I am recalling this right) Bulging Keel Syndrome.
FWIW, Carl Alberg was apparently very upset with Whitby over the A30 keel ballast...he had spec'd it as lead, and for cost savings they used cast Iron instead, which of course changed the sailing charachter from what he had intended. I also have read in a few places of people having the occasional bulging keel on the A30, due to water intrusion into the ballast cavity and rusting/expansion of the iron pig. Bearing that in mind, concrete full of iron punchings poured tightly into a keel sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. There is no way, no matter what, that we can expect an old boat with internal ballast NOT to end up with water penetration into that cavity.
A lot of good boats were made with concrete/iron ballast, or just bolted-on iron. If nothing else, it was guick and inexpensive...that's why it was done. I wouldn't worry too much about having a boat with a keel of that sort if it was an EXTERNAL ballast like most of your old woodies, and a number of 'glass boats including the earlier production Tritons (which actually used a lead external ballast).
As to repute and/or capability of the boat, we have to remember that it is unlikely to find an owner/enthusiast group who would be saying "This Boat Sucks!". Also, lots of things can circumnavigate...that doesn't make them necessarily suited, though. People have done it in Cascade 29's, for example. I stripped and demo'd C29 #8 last summer, and I'll say that I wouldn't have done it in one (!)...but again, that's just one man's opinion.
I also found that the Rawsons I looked at were pretty high-priced for what you were getting...but again, it's just opinion.
These are just my thoughts...I don't really know. Tim no doubt does, and I know he'll come to the rescue!
Dave
I looked at Rawson 30's, and there were a few areas of the boat I didn't find satisfactory...but everyone has their own needs and opinions, right? I just didn't feel that the boat was as well-done as it is claimed to be in comparison to an old Pearson or to a Cheoy Lee, for example. I was also spooked out by the commentary I found on an owners' site about troubles with the concrete.
Now, I know that my friend Perry's Offshore 27 (AKA Cheoy Lee Cadet) has the concrete in there...he hasn't seen any troubles. I did also have a fellow mention in discussion on one newsgroup or another having spent a few days helping a friend jackhammer and remove the concrete in the same model boat due to some kind of (If I am recalling this right) Bulging Keel Syndrome.
FWIW, Carl Alberg was apparently very upset with Whitby over the A30 keel ballast...he had spec'd it as lead, and for cost savings they used cast Iron instead, which of course changed the sailing charachter from what he had intended. I also have read in a few places of people having the occasional bulging keel on the A30, due to water intrusion into the ballast cavity and rusting/expansion of the iron pig. Bearing that in mind, concrete full of iron punchings poured tightly into a keel sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. There is no way, no matter what, that we can expect an old boat with internal ballast NOT to end up with water penetration into that cavity.
A lot of good boats were made with concrete/iron ballast, or just bolted-on iron. If nothing else, it was guick and inexpensive...that's why it was done. I wouldn't worry too much about having a boat with a keel of that sort if it was an EXTERNAL ballast like most of your old woodies, and a number of 'glass boats including the earlier production Tritons (which actually used a lead external ballast).
As to repute and/or capability of the boat, we have to remember that it is unlikely to find an owner/enthusiast group who would be saying "This Boat Sucks!". Also, lots of things can circumnavigate...that doesn't make them necessarily suited, though. People have done it in Cascade 29's, for example. I stripped and demo'd C29 #8 last summer, and I'll say that I wouldn't have done it in one (!)...but again, that's just one man's opinion.
I also found that the Rawsons I looked at were pretty high-priced for what you were getting...but again, it's just opinion.
These are just my thoughts...I don't really know. Tim no doubt does, and I know he'll come to the rescue!
Dave
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David
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Dave, 397
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romeozero
Wow,
Thanks a bunch for your insight guys I really appreciate the time. BTW Dave I was in Bellingham today visiting my folks and we went for a stroll around the marina. Judging from the trip back to Seattle (snow in Everett) we were lucky to have such great weather. Not to say that snow on Christmas day is a bad thing but the marina in Bellingham on a sunny day with a view of the San Juans is simply spectacular. I just wish had access to the docks so I could see more of the boats! I did however get a few good shots of what looked like an older pearson design near the parking lot and few others. Beautiful.
I'll never get tired of that place.
Anyway, thanks again for your input on the Rawson 30's,.
E.
Thanks a bunch for your insight guys I really appreciate the time. BTW Dave I was in Bellingham today visiting my folks and we went for a stroll around the marina. Judging from the trip back to Seattle (snow in Everett) we were lucky to have such great weather. Not to say that snow on Christmas day is a bad thing but the marina in Bellingham on a sunny day with a view of the San Juans is simply spectacular. I just wish had access to the docks so I could see more of the boats! I did however get a few good shots of what looked like an older pearson design near the parking lot and few others. Beautiful.
I'll never get tired of that place.
Anyway, thanks again for your input on the Rawson 30's,.
E.
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Dave, 397
Older Peason design was where?
In the water or on the hard?
I'm just trying to nail down which boat you were looking at in my mind. The LeCompte (or did I mention that...no, it was to someone else. There is a very sweet Tripp-designed LeCompte 32/Medalist laying on the hard here...the owners are in the midwest, and the boat is passively for sale. I could put you in touch if you like...she's a sweet boat with nice lines and looks real sexy fast. They sailed her down from Alaska a couple years ago.), BTW, is on the hard at the Seaview yard near the Gate 3 parking lot (Gate 3 is the main hub of things down at the west end of Squalicum Harbor's big sprawl, next to the yacht club.)
Whereabouts are you located? Anytime you want to get down on the floats, just get hold of me...generally all of the gates are open until dusk anyway, but if you run into difficulty I'll be glad to help it out...or just hang out and show you the fightin' Triton.
I wonder if you saw the Vanguard that's down off gate 9? Name's GAMEFISH, she needs some love and work. Gate 9 is to the east and is near the complex with the kiddie touch aquarium and the Bay Cafe.
Either that, or if you went down from 3 until you were looking right at the breakwater, you saw my friend Jay's Renegade. I think since I sold my old Commander, my friends sold her twin, and Eric L. sold his west-coast Triton NORDIC...that we are down to two old pearsons and one Alberg 30. I still have a slip right out on G float by the breakwater off gate 3 (which is sublet right now) but of course MANDARA is still a Triton "Kit" as such in a building down at the Colony Wharf/BMI yard on C St.
I don't know why I didn't think of that LeCompte before for you...she's 32 feet but doesn't look it...pretty fine entry and a fairly flat bilge run...looks a lot like an overgrown Ariel/Commander hull from the deck clamp down. If I'd have seen her before we found 397, I might have a LeCompte instead! I did speak with the owner on one occasion by phone just to find out more about the boat, and I got the impression that while they are in no huge rush to sell it is definitely in the cards...and I also got the impression she would not be too costly to purchase. I can take and send some pics if you like, e-mail me and I'll get it done!
Maybe next time you are heading this way we can get together...if I know in advance I can probably get you out sailing on one of my pals' hotrod small boats if you like...the Renegade, another guy's Albin-Vega 27, or my friend Perry's hot-rodded Cheoy Lee Cadet...if she's back in the water for the season at said time, my friend's old International Dragon is also a possibility. Fun boat, but real demanding to sail! Bellingham bay this time of year is a blast...our best sailing is in the winter, but very few folk take advantage of it, which is a shame as it's pretty flat in July and August when they all decide to go places.
A last and connected thought...I couldn't stand to do any winter sailing without my Mustang Suit! I have a pair of Sm./Med. suits of comparable concept and quality that are an English make in my selling inventory right now...they're slow to sell because no one is familiar with the brand, but if you wear that size, the price is very good...a lot less than the grease-stained retired Mustang suits from the seajunk places. Everybody in the northwest should have one of these kind of suits, I bet more people would be sailing in the good January stuff if they did!
Best,
Dave
In the water or on the hard?
I'm just trying to nail down which boat you were looking at in my mind. The LeCompte (or did I mention that...no, it was to someone else. There is a very sweet Tripp-designed LeCompte 32/Medalist laying on the hard here...the owners are in the midwest, and the boat is passively for sale. I could put you in touch if you like...she's a sweet boat with nice lines and looks real sexy fast. They sailed her down from Alaska a couple years ago.), BTW, is on the hard at the Seaview yard near the Gate 3 parking lot (Gate 3 is the main hub of things down at the west end of Squalicum Harbor's big sprawl, next to the yacht club.)
Whereabouts are you located? Anytime you want to get down on the floats, just get hold of me...generally all of the gates are open until dusk anyway, but if you run into difficulty I'll be glad to help it out...or just hang out and show you the fightin' Triton.
I wonder if you saw the Vanguard that's down off gate 9? Name's GAMEFISH, she needs some love and work. Gate 9 is to the east and is near the complex with the kiddie touch aquarium and the Bay Cafe.
Either that, or if you went down from 3 until you were looking right at the breakwater, you saw my friend Jay's Renegade. I think since I sold my old Commander, my friends sold her twin, and Eric L. sold his west-coast Triton NORDIC...that we are down to two old pearsons and one Alberg 30. I still have a slip right out on G float by the breakwater off gate 3 (which is sublet right now) but of course MANDARA is still a Triton "Kit" as such in a building down at the Colony Wharf/BMI yard on C St.
I don't know why I didn't think of that LeCompte before for you...she's 32 feet but doesn't look it...pretty fine entry and a fairly flat bilge run...looks a lot like an overgrown Ariel/Commander hull from the deck clamp down. If I'd have seen her before we found 397, I might have a LeCompte instead! I did speak with the owner on one occasion by phone just to find out more about the boat, and I got the impression that while they are in no huge rush to sell it is definitely in the cards...and I also got the impression she would not be too costly to purchase. I can take and send some pics if you like, e-mail me and I'll get it done!
Maybe next time you are heading this way we can get together...if I know in advance I can probably get you out sailing on one of my pals' hotrod small boats if you like...the Renegade, another guy's Albin-Vega 27, or my friend Perry's hot-rodded Cheoy Lee Cadet...if she's back in the water for the season at said time, my friend's old International Dragon is also a possibility. Fun boat, but real demanding to sail! Bellingham bay this time of year is a blast...our best sailing is in the winter, but very few folk take advantage of it, which is a shame as it's pretty flat in July and August when they all decide to go places.
A last and connected thought...I couldn't stand to do any winter sailing without my Mustang Suit! I have a pair of Sm./Med. suits of comparable concept and quality that are an English make in my selling inventory right now...they're slow to sell because no one is familiar with the brand, but if you wear that size, the price is very good...a lot less than the grease-stained retired Mustang suits from the seajunk places. Everybody in the northwest should have one of these kind of suits, I bet more people would be sailing in the good January stuff if they did!
Best,
Dave
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
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I say that if the Rawson 30 is to your liking, and you can find one that is in condition acceptable to you, then go for it. They are generally well liked by those who own them. To my eye, I find them a little bulky-looking and less than sleek, but that's just from photos, as I don't believe I've ever seen one locally--and besides, it's not me looking, it's you.romeozero wrote:I live in the Pacific Northwest and many of the boats I'd like to purchase (Alberg 30 and the like) are located on the east coast. However, the Rawson 30 was built in the area and there are a few for sale rather cheaply. Could anyone comment on the design of this boat? Not much is known about them outside the Pacific NW but I've heard only good things and at least one has circumnavigated.
Concrete as ballast is hardly something I would ever choose, but if the boat was what I wanted, and suited my intended use, then what difference does it truly make? This assumes that you don't have a situation that, for whatever reason, requires the removal or modification of that concrete ballast. For a Rawson, I would definitely spring for the comprehensive survey with emphasis on the ballast area.
As a side note, frankly I find it pretty pathetic that any builders use anything but lead for their keels. Everyone knows that lead makes the best ballast for any number of reasons; the only reason for any builder, amateur or professional, to use any other material is pure cost savings, to satisfy unrealistsic budgets or low consumer expectations. Some compromises simply aren't worth even considering--and yet they continue to proliferate.
I would stay far, far away from a boat with known ballast problems. But if you can satisfy yourself, through proper inspection and due diligence, that the particular example at which you might look is sound, then why not indeed? Every boat, no matter the type or how they are constructed, must be looked at for its own merits, and inspected for same. Whatever the case, knowing about a potential weakness up front should at least prepare you on some level for the possibility that you may need to someday address it...so keep that in mind as well. Never turn a blind eye to known weak areas...but also keep an open mind and don't automatically discount things based on generalities.
Remember also that, should you buy a Rawson and then one day choose to sell her, the slate of potential buyers will likely be asking the same questions you now are, and will be worrying about the same issues. So be prepared for market value to reflect this accordingly.
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David
The reason for removing the ballast
My friend wanted the concrete removed becuase the boat was so tender, in part I think becuase the iron in the concrete had turned to powder, but at the time we really didn't know that until we started breaking up the concrete. We replaced the concrete with 25# lead pigs glassed into place and it made all the difference in the boat's sailing abilities.
David
David