Alberg 30's and Triton's

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:01 pm

Following the Gllissando project over the last couple of years definitely got me thinking about finding my own Alberg designed boat. What sort of differences would I find between the Alberg 30 and Pearson Triton? (yeah I know... about two feet!).

Thanks,

Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 8:27 am

The A30 is suprisingly larger-feeling than the Triton--much more so than you would expect from an increase of two feet. The beam is somewhat wider, and the topsides higher, so there is substantially more elbow room in the cabin, and greater headroom throughout the entire cabin, including the forward portions. A30s tend to have built-in lockers behind the settees, with more storage room all around.

The aft portion of the salon in the A30 is larger than that in the Triton, with a much better potential galley space. Otherwise, excepting the extra width and headroom in the A30, the two boats' salons are very similar. The head layout is different; I think there's more of a built-in locker to one side on the A30, with a more-enclosed head compartment opposite, though my memory is failing me at the moment and I can't exactly remember how the A30s I've been aboard are set up.

The Triton v-berth is second to none in its size, though the A30 has a decent one also. Again, I forget the exact details, as it's been some months since I was last on an A30.

The deck layouts are very similar. The extra length of the A30 allows for much larger cockpit lockers and lazarette, so this can be a plus--although the Triton's spaces are adequate for most uses. Both boats have excellent cockpits and wide sidedecks.

The overall appearance of each boat is certainly similar, but with significant differing details that you notice after a while, making identification easy. I prefer the lower profile of the Triton, personally, but the A30 is an attractive boat. Most Tritons have fractional rigs, while the A30 has a lower-aspect masthead rig--although some masthead Tritons were produced. (There is some discussion of this elsewhere on this forum.) The masthead version of the Triton and A30 look very similar overall, while the taller fractional Triton sleekens its appearance further, in my opinion. Both boats sail similarly and perform better than they ought to.

Choosing between the two boats could depend on many factors. In many cases, pure local availability can be the deciding factor--assuming you like either design, if one or the other were to show up on the market close by, that could likely be enough reason to choose that particular one over the other. Or, if you want more headroom and storage, the A30 is probably a better choice. If that's less important to you, and you want a more essential boat, then perhaps the Triton is better suited.

The reality is that both boats fill the same market need, and you couldn't go wrong either way, design-wise. A30s tend to be significantely more expensive than Tritons in similar condition. Also, A30s were built over a period of nearly 20 years, and the later models joined the "plastic liner" crowd, with absolutely no charm or warmth. Look for a 60's vintage A30. I think they're much nicer.

Structurally and mechanically, both boats will probably have similar issues. Some A30s used a masonite deck core that was even worse than Balsa in terms of water travel; plus, it swells when wet, creating more problems. But a bad core is a bad core, and you may be faced with this repair regardless. Don't let it be a deciding factor unless your search comes down to two specific boats that forces you to compare directly.

Those are my initial thoughts. Let me know if you have any other questions, and good luck!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 12:39 pm

Those are pretty nice initial thoughts. I appreciate the attention.

-Britton

Old Ben Gun · Post by **Old Ben Gun** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:23 pm

I have just found this board and the Triton site. I was exploring for Ideas as to how and where to start my projects. The above post is great but leaves out the Alberg 29. Although shorter than the Alberg 30 she caries even more room. She has a beam of 9'2" and an aditional burth in the port aft area. She was intended as a one up improvment on the old Alberg 30 design.

Old Ben Gun · Post by **Old Ben Gun** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:27 pm

Sorry. I didnt know I could post a picture. Here is one of my Alberg 29 Triska

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:25 pm

When I did an abreviated web search for the A29 I found your website with more photos. I miss the west coast...

But about the boat. The '29 definitely shows the extra beaminess. Are you familiar with the A30's sailing qualities and how they would compare with the A29. I am not sure if C. Alberg ever designed an ugly boat (well at least not one that went into production although now that I think of it... anyway/ off topic) but I like a narrow profile and definitely like the idea of keeping the length to beam ratio as high as possible for the seakindliness (and roll recovery though I hope I never experience one) factor.

I haven't seen an A29 around here. Are they equally distributed or are they found mostly on the west coast? If they were around me then I would definitely put them on the list to consider. Think of all that beam and the "stuff" I could fit in there!

A kind gentleman offered me a chance to look at his A30 last weekend and I was quite taken by it. Now if I could find an equally kind Tritan owner near the Massachusetts north shore... (only in MA temporarily to make money and go sailing again. Please no prejudice from the Maine crowd!)

Thanks for the post. Hopefully I will be buying before the spring. Anyone have something along these lines they need to let go of?

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:17 am

Britton,

North Shore isn't very far from where I am in Maine (less than 2 hours). If you wanted, you're welcome to come up here for a chance to see three Tritons in one location. Let me know if you're interested. Just about any time would be fine.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:30 pm

The Alberg 29 was the last improvment made to the design. She is sloop rigged and has a draft of 4'6". She is a good stiff boat in a blow. She will sail well in everything up to 30 Kts at which point it becomes a little more work. I that I mean you have to pay more attention. She sails well in light air as well as heavy. On feature I like is the keel steped mast and heavy rigging. Her interior space is very good and she has ample storage below. The aft port burth is a bonus and she also has a two burner stove with oven. She is more along the line of a Cape Dory 30 with addition of the extra burth. You also may be fortunate in that your on the east coast. The 29s were built by Nye Yachts in Ontario Canada and are more prevalent in the east. Wish you could gind one to have a peek at. If I can provide any more info please let me know.[img]javascript:openSlideWin(1, '67b0de21b357e576848f', 92);
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Old Ben Gun · Post by **Old Ben Gun** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:37 pm

The seat backs also fold upward and are held by a lanyard revealing an additional area behind for extra sleeping space

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:43 pm

Wow!... Thanks Tim. An invitation to see Glissando and company real, live, and in person. After following the project it would be like meeting a celebrity. I would love to take a look and I will contact you REAL SOON. I only ask that you don't convince me to take on a similar project. I dream excessively as it is and I don't need any more projects!

And thanks uh... Doug is it?... Those are some lovely pictures and I might have some questions for you. It will probably depend more on what I can find than on a particular design. My point for starting the thread was to reduce my selections but no such luck. So many beautiful boats and so little time.

Thanks again all,

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:21 pm

Britton,

Email me about coming up to visit and we'll work out a time and I'll give you directions, etc. tlackey@triton381.com

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:35 pm

I just stumbled onto this Alberg 30 pic, and thought I'd share....

Now tell me that's not what it's all about!!!!

Old Ben · Post by **Old Ben** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:31 pm

I don't know how the Alberg 30 sails but the Alberg 29 sails circles around the Cape Dory 27, 28, and 30. When I bought her I had no idea she would be sooooo good in light air. Sails stiff in upto 30 KTS and is a bit more work anything over 30. I have had her out or should I say been caught out in up to 50 Kts.

Dave, 397 · Post by **Dave, 397** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:04 am

She really is a handsome boat! Anyone should be proud to call a boat like that their own, I'd say!

I noted with interest the flat on the the leading edge and bottom of the keel, and wondered if any of our more scientifically-minded people could comment on it. I have read that the leading edge should be fairly blunt, and it looks like Carl really went all-out on this one! I'm also curious if there are lines plans extant for the A29, as I'd be interested in seeing the overall foil shape of the keel. If the flat surface is a real benefit, I would be curious to see the lines and get an idea as to the possible adaptability of the foil shape to my Triton. I'd also be very interested to see a pic of the aft underbody and rudder, if I could.

Not that I am super likely to do such a thing...but I have wondered (as I look at a real big stick I could have for the price of carrying it across the yard) at whether there is a really large advantage to keel-stepping the mast. I lived with a compression post down thru the middle of everything in my old Commander, so I could probably adapt to it in a Triton, too. The changes to the interior layout would be very considerable to accomodate, though, so I'd really need to be looking at a massive gain somehow...or just stay with plan "A", which is the Ironwood strongback and compression posts, solid 'glass band across under the mast step, and a bit of added mass to the tabbing surface of the bulkhead that ties the deck to the hull in that whole mess.

Kind of like the Daysailor (only I still have a cabin!) , I have this basically empty hull to work from...so I am intrigued by the different things that become possible.

Thanks,
Dave

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:40 am

I'm pretty sure that apparent "flat" in the photo a few posts up is more of a trick of lighting and reflection. I can see how it appears to be flat, but looking closely at the photo reveals softer edges and lots of other light/reflective components in other areas. Note how the stem profile above the waterline could also be said to look "flat", but I think we all know that is must be bullnosed--spoon bows never have a flat leading edge (though more modern bows often do--above the waterline, at least).

It looks, to me, as if the designer attempted to create more of a "foil" shape as an evolution of years of designing the same boat over and over again (which, as we all joke, is pretty much what our beloved Carl did). Of course, to term any full keel as a "foil" stretches the credibility of the word. At best, full keels of our ilk might be called remotely hydrodynamic.

Now, if the owner of this fine boat is still with us and would care to comment directly about the profile of his keel, then we can put this to bed once and for all.

I found this photo of another A29 online, and it shows what looks like a more sharply rounded leading edge than that of the Triton, but rounded nonetheless--but maybe with a more abrubt transition between the leading edge and the sides of the keel than we see on the Triton. Also, remember that there is a distinct difference in keel shape between the internal-and external ballast Triton keels. The internal keels, from those that I have seen, are somewhat wider and more rounded than the external ballast keels like the two that I have. The A29 keel that I can see in the photos in this thread resemble the external Triton keel more than the internal one, FWIW.

(Side note: check out that boat name! How'd you like to say that three times fast into a Mayday call...or even calling the local harbormaster!? hehe)

I've seen an A29 hauled out once in person, but it was many years ago and I paid no real attention to the keel area. But a true flat area at the leading edge of the keel and forefoot probably would have caught my attention.

Here's a drawing, of sorts. There is very limited info on the A29 available online, though seven examples are listed online at soldboats.com as having sold in 2002-2003 (all in Canada). Nice looking boats, all.

Regarding keel vs. deck-stepped: I feel that it would be unworthy to attempt to convert the Triton to a keel stepped. A well-engineered (read as: strong) deck support is every bit as good for all intents and purposes. I personally have no qualms about deck-stepping as a concept. The execution often leaves something to be desired, however, which must be addressed as necessary on a case-by-case basis.

One possible advantage of the keel-step (but not worth revamping an entire design over) is that in a rigging failure that causes dismasting, there typically remains at least some semblance of a mast stump from which to erect a jury rig. A deck stepped mast, if toppled, may leave less of a starting point behind.

That's not reason enough, in my book. Perhaps (almost certainly, in fact) if I were spec'ing the "ideal" offshore cruiser I'd choose keel stepping, but wouldn't try to change what I already had.

Dave, 397 · Post by **Dave, 397** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:01 am

Yeah, I didn't really think it would be a huge deal regarding how stepped, but I have that other stick sitting there if I want it...just had to bounce the idea around. My buddy the brainfry-wizard of an engineer thought that it might be a bit easier to keep a keel-stepped mast in good column as a beam with one pin end as opposed to a beam with two...but given the sheer heft of a Pearson spar, and with the hull beefed up a bit to accomodate the big picture including upsized wire with its commensurately higher standing tension at "pitch" as it were, I don't anticipate any real troubles.

It is interesting to look at lines plans of Alberg's boats as they evolved...each of them that I've actually gotten to look at either on paper or on jacks has been quite a bit different, actually, but in subtle ways. All definitely variations/evolutions on a common theme, that's for sure.

My keel is about 2 inches wider at its max. width than the earlier, external-ballast boats...according to a couple of sources including M's dad who worked there at the time, the ballast pig inside my keel is the same identical part to the shoe on the outside of yours...they just made the keel wider to accomodate sticking it inside. Interesting to note, the trailing edge is the same width from one type to the other...theoretically, the later keel has a bit more actual foil shape. The Mr. Wizard types I've spoken with about it seem to mainly think that the earlier Triton probably points a bit better, and the later probably has a bit more lift. I'd think the light-air performance on the earlier hull is probably a hair bit better, too.

In all, though, I'm just looking forward to really getting some work done on the boat in a big way in the next few months...we're getting to the fun parts now, I think.

Shop pics forthcoming, also. :).

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:37 am

Dave, 397 wrote:...according to a couple of sources including M's dad who worked there at the time, the ballast pig inside my keel is the same identical part to the shoe on the outside of yours...they just made the keel wider to accomodate sticking it inside...

Interesting. I hadn't heard that, but it makes sense enough. I still wonder why they made the change (though ditching that asinine "false keel" thing is certainly a worthy reason in an of itself).

Actually, it's interesting to note that many 70s vintage Pearsons continued with the false keel theme, during the era in which highly swept-back fin keels were all the rage. Pearson 30s, 10Ms and the like all have a tacked-on piece at the keel's trailing edge--but coupled with internal ballast.

Dave, 397 · Post by **Dave, 397** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:10 pm

I read at one point an excerpt from a talk Everett P. gave somewhere in which he explained that they went to the internal ballast for the Ariel, and in the process found it much faster to produce...so they changed the Triton molds or made new to do the same.

The ballast pig re-use, I imagine, was for cost-efficiency...they already had the tooling paid for, so why not keep the same stuff...something like that.

I'm not altogether certain if the entire keel is one piece on my boat or not. I do know that I don't block it back aft, just like it had the false keel, as it's pretty light back there. The absolute rear end??? Pretty thin, and they filled in with foam in that area and overglassed from inside. I'm not sure if it was really one piece or not. Seems like it was, but I can see why it would be pretty light--imagine trying to lay very much 'glass up successfully in that narrow of a mold cavity! Yikes! FWIW, the Ariel/Commander trailing edge is made the same way.

Dave

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:26 pm

Dave, 397 wrote:...imagine trying to lay very much 'glass up successfully in that narrow of a mold cavity! Yikes!

Been there, done that. It's every bit as nasty, hard, impossible, and ridiculous as you might imagine!

Douglas · Post by **Douglas** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:56 pm

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:24 pm

Most important difference between a Triton and an A30?... A Triton is better looking and costs half as much! :-) (operating costs aside which I assume to be effectively identical)

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:33 pm

There simply is no end to "Triton Stories".

Guy at the end of the dock (now owns a Valiant 40, and has put more than 30,000 miles under her keel) "I had one of those from 1962-1970, boy what a great boat that was..... 30 minutes of nostalgia.

Guy at the end of the dock's wife... "I had a Triton for ten years before I met Bob.... 10 minutes of nostalgia (she had stuff to do, SHE maintans that 40footer!)

Another guy who just returned last night up the ICW from winter in south carolina "A good friend of mine had a Triton for about 15 years, I think it was a 1964. For at least ten of those years, that boat sailed from Block Island to Bermuda, then to Beaufort (NC), then back up the gulfstream to Block Island. He did that every year. I even went with him a couple of times. Boy this boat sure sails a lot bigger than it is...."

You get the idea. I love it.

Post by **Tim** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:00 pm

Almost anywhere you go, the Triton attracts attention of that sort--it's really cool! It seems everyone either knows about the boat, or sailed on one, or grew up on one, or owned one, or something. You can meet some very interesting people when you sail a Triton!

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:31 pm

Hey look! It's Britton's first post at the top of this thread.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:25 pm

You know I just noticed someone came back to this thread after all these years. Let me see...

a much younger and dumber Britton wrote:...but I like a narrow profile and definitely like the idea of keeping the length to beam ratio as high as possible for the seakindliness (and roll recovery though I hope I never experience one) factor.

What a rediculous statement THAT was...

A very niave and impressionable Britton wrote:Wow!... Thanks Tim. An invitation to see Glissando and company real, live, and in person. After following the project it would be like meeting a celebrity. I would love to take a look and I will contact you REAL SOON. I only ask that you don't convince me to take on a similar project. I dream excessively as it is and I don't need any more projects!

Hmmm... how did that turn out?...

Thanks Tim.

:-)

Post by **Tim** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:07 am

Oh, you love it and you know it!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:26 am

Life began when I gutted my boat. I truly love it :-)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:52 am

I see that the apostrophe cop is laying down on the job. Again.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed May 07, 2008 11:21 am

Apostrophe's are over used. They need a vacation

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:22 pm

Figment wrote:I see that the apostrophe cop is laying down on the job. Again.

Or lying down, as the case may be...

R.

dcstrng · Post by **dcstrng** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:24 pm

bcooke wrote:Life began when I gutted my boat...

Funny you should mention that... My wife (the far better woodworker in the family) is in the process of convincing me that we should gut the main-cabin of our little rascal... sole is squishy, and we've both had some band-aid notions of what to do, but maybe a complete redo is better all around and will allow us to get the most use out of our B24...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:41 pm

Definitely!

Although in all seriousness, it is a big project, much bigger than I had planned on. The number of minor details that take a lot of time is hard to imagine unil you have been there.

Expect several "while I am there I might as well..." ideas which will add to your time estimate.

And then there are the late night thoughts about "but if I do (fill in blank) then I have to do (fill in blank) which will prevent me from doing (fill in the ... you get the point) :-)

Everything effects everything else and it is vase maze of indecisions that you can get lost in.

On the other hand (and I am assuming here) when you are done, everything is just how you like it. Mostly anyway. The other stuff you know why it is done that other way which makes you feel better.

It IS a lot of fun too. Just be prepared for about four times the work you expected. Better do the same to the financial estimates.

Plastic Classic Forum

Alberg 30's and Triton's

Alberg 30's and Triton's

Alberg 29

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