Yet another thread about boat sheds

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Yet another thread about boat sheds

Post by Chris Campbell »

This may be inappropriate, starting another thread on a subject that is well covered elsewhere - but I didn't want to hijack anyone else's thread, and (just like everyone else) I feel like there are details to my requirements that aren't covered elsewhere.

So hopefully it's ok that I'm starting this thread!

Here's the situation: new (to me) Yankee 30 in need of lots of work (including painting of hull & deck), winter is arriving, budget (time and money) is limited. I'd like the shed to last through three planned winters of significant work (with sailing seasons in between), and then would like to continue using it for storage after that (more or less a permanent shelter). I understand that the covering would need replacing periodically, but don't know how often).

My location is windy - sometimes very windy. Here's a picture of where the boat is now:
Image
That's looking from our house to the East, this one looks Northeast:
Image
(larger images here and here - if they're not showing up try again later, my host has been flakey lately)

And we're exposed to the North as well. The snow is from last night's storm - should be gone by mid-week, but we will have snow in varying quantities for most of the winter. The winds last night weren't too bad - 35 knots gusting to 45 - but we do get some doozies every winter, so whatever I build has got to be able to take high winds with no protection from trees or other structures.

The boat is 30' long, but the trailer tongue adds a couple of feet, and I'll need space behind when I paint, so the shed should be 35' long, minimum. Since the boat is on a trailer it's higher than it would be on stands - the deck is around 10' off the ground (higher at the bow, lower at the stern). The beam is 9' at the widest, so at 10' off the ground I need ~14' of width in the shed. More would be nice, but that ought to do.

The shed's position will be either where the boat is, with the shed it's beside moved to the right, or on the other side of that shed, with the shed moved to where the boat is now.

I had figured on building a Stimson shed and covering it with shrink-wrap. I've heard that they actually stand up to wind better than some stick-built permanent buildings, probably because they flex rather than break (as long as they're tied to the ground sufficiently, of course). I was planning bows on 2' centers, and I don't know how long to make the bows since I haven't worked out how to figure making it 14' wide at 10' off the ground. Assuming that you, who have far more experience of Stimson sheds than I, agree that it ought to be able to handle the wind, this still seems like the ideal solution. Inexpensive, relatively nice to look at, and bright with white shrink-wrap covering it. But my current problem is one of time: I'm running out of it. Night falls before I'm done work, so I only have weekends to build it, and assuming that the 40 hour estimate to build is correct (dubious) that puts me at about three weeks to finish the project. At this time of year that seems like too long. The cost of this option I'm estimating at $1400 - $1000 for the lumber and $400 for the shrink-wrapping.

I've investigated clearspan and other shelters, and it seems I could have one delivered to me from a Canadian company for $4200. It would be a metal-framed structure with frames on 4' centers, covered in an 18 mil (9 oz) tarp. They claim it would take me 4-5 hours to erect (with two friends), and that the ground it sits on doesn't have to be 100% level. It comes with anchors, but since mine is a high-wind application I might want to purchase an additional anchoring solution, or come up with one of my own. The downside to this is that it's much more expensive, and while they say it's rated for "winter and wind" - they don't guarantee it for that. The salesperson (the most reliable person in the world, obviously!) says that the only time they've seen wind damage to one of their structures it was due to user error (insufficient anchoring or a door left open in a storm, that sort of thing). Dunno.

Assuming that both sheds are equal, the one uses up budget in terms of time, the other in terms of money. The cost of the shed (as with most of us) comes out of what can be spent on the boat - in more absolute terms with regard to money than with time, since if I use up time now I'll add it in the end, but...

I guess I'm hoping that I will be convinced that a Stimson shed is wonderful and is worth the time invested. It'll stand up to 70 knot winds and hold up over the years as long as I replace the shrink-wrap every 4 years and patch it in between, and that it doesn't have to be impossibly tall to manage 14' at 10' off the ground. Or that there is another type of shed that I could build faster that would be strong enough and last well enough, that costs somewhere in the middle between the two. Or...?

Thanks!

Chris
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Post by Tim »

I'd go Stimpson with a white shrinkwrap cover and stick-built solid (i.e. plywood or otherwise sheathed) end walls. To get the height you want, you'll probably need to build kneewalls of a certain height in order to get the peak of the building up high enough; the narrowing of the building at deck height is perhaps the biggest potential pitfall of the Stimpson shed, but it can be relatively easily overcome.

Obviously proper anchoring of any building is key to hold it against the winds in your exposed location. Stimpson is the most cost-effective, strong, useful, and "permanent" solution available. Done correctly, the basic building ought to last indefinitely, with occasional refreshing of the cover. But shrinkwrap lasts a long time in the low-UV northern climes.

Don't underestimate the value of a good indoor workspace in helping you get your projects underway and completed. Make any "building" the best it can be so that it's actually workable during the large part of your working season. This makes any investment in the building well worthwhile; the cost is quickly offset by efficiency and the ability to actually get work done, assuming that getting work done is the point and all.
northeast38 wrote:So hopefully it's ok that I'm starting this thread!
Folks, there's no limit on new threads. I feel it's far more appropriate to create specific threads for new questions and projects than to endlessly drag on some older thread of marginal relevance. I actually greatly dislike semi-relevant tack-ons to older threads and would always prefer that new topics get new topics.
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Post by JonnyBoats »

Image Did you see the movie The Shipping News? That house was post and beam construction with massive chains tieing it down to granite ledge at all corners - and it blew down.

From the looks of your location, no type of construction could be considered overkill :-)
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Post by Chris Campbell »

That's pretty funny that you should mention that particular film - our house was scouted as one of the potential locations for that particular house! Which sadly doesn't say much for the way it looks - or looked, I should say. We've since replaced the entire exterior, so hopefully it's a little less ramshackle.

We definitely do rock and roll when the storms come through, heating is a joke (cuddle with the woodstove) and the house makes ominous noises that we've come to trust don't mean its imminent collapse. I think the house in The Shipping News, however, was knocked down by bad spirits in the end, wasn't it?

I'm glad for Tim's endorsement of the Stimson shed idea, and having just picked up the plans from a friend (who bought them and never built one), I see that it ought to be fine for our weather as long as I use enough bows and enough diagonals, which I will. I'll be sure to post more on the specific design and construction details as I get underway (have to finish our woodshed first, otherwise it'll never get done!).
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Based on measurements of the template that came with the plans, scaled up from the 14' wide/14' bows they have laid out, I've arrived at needing 17 or 18' bows and a 4' knee wall to get my 14' width at a height of 10'. That results in the peak of the shed being 17'4" for the 17' bows and 18'2" for the 18' bows.

I'm no genius with creating drawings, but this one is kind of to scale, assuming 9' beam, 5 draft, 3' freeboard, and 1' trailer:
Image

I wish it didn't need to be so tall, but that's the price of the bow shed, I guess. I suppose I can use the overhead space for storage of materials if I put collar ties in...
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Post by catamount »

Not a stimson shed, but yes, use the collar ties for storing materials!

Image
Last edited by catamount on Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bluenose »

I've investigated clearspan and other shelters, and it seems I could have one delivered to me from a Canadian company for $4200. It would be a metal-framed structure with frames on 4' centers, covered in an 18 mil (9 oz) tarp. They claim it would take me 4-5 hours to erect (with two friends), and that the ground it sits on doesn't have to be 100% level. It comes with anchors, but since mine is a high-wind application I might want to purchase an additional anchoring solution, or come up with one of my own.
Well it sounds like you have decided on the Stimson so my thoughts are probably mute. And I am by no means a skilled carpenter, but I would place a fair bet that three people couldn't install their first Clearspan shelter in 4-5 hours. Even if the building site is ready and the anchor assemblies are installed. I probably spent the better part of 2 hours on anchors alone and I placed them on every other frame (per their instruction for light wind areas).

The other thing about Clearspan shelter is that I think anytime one goes down it could be blamed on user installation. On the one hand they imply that you don't have to install on perfectly flat ground but then when you don't you have to get a bit creative at times following the instructions. I figured I was self insuring.

That said, I am quite enjoying the Clearspan. I am still battling moisture on the roof even though I lined my building site with 6 mil plastic and road cloth beneath 4-6 inches of 5/8 minus gravel. My hope is that when the saturated gravel dries out the moisture will diminish.

Good luck with you Stimson.

Cheers, Bill
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Post by Tim »

I think whatever you build, holding it to the ground is going to be the toughest part. Clearly that's going to be critical in your location. I wouldn't begin to know what to suggest there, especially at this time of year.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

The clearspan solution appeals to the "get it done quick and be pretty confident that it's going to work" part of me, no question. But the part that gets satisfaction from doing it from scratch, and the part that shies away from spending 4x more money than the minimum both are drawn to the Stimson shed, no question.

I agree vis-a-vis the anchoring being crucial. That and making sure that the shed reaches the ground effectively to prevent wind getting in under the edges - which of course will compound the condensation problem. Some musing will need to be done on this front, for sure.

It is somewhat tempting to just shrink wrap the boat in the normal manner for this winter and build a shed later. I could get the engine and wiring done under that this winter, and prep the decks for paint (mostly, although the edges would be hard to get to), then build the shed in the spring in time to do the painting under it. As long as the ground had thawed enough it would probably be easier to anchor then... Maybe this is worthy of serious consideration. Adds a bit of expense - wrapping the boat only to then toss it away, but perhaps that's a worthwhile expense. Although there is a problem with the fact that there is no hardware on the bow and therefore nothing to secure shrink wrap to, but there must be some way around that.

OK - now I'm just rambling!
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Post by Bluenose »

I think you are right thinking about anchoring solutions and I don't know what the recommendations are for anchoring Stimson sheds. Clearspan's anchoring setup looks like this:

Image

With typical screw in anchors like this:

Image

Above the ground the Clearspan solution is very stout. The turnbuckles and frame attachments aren't going anywhere. But their screw in anchor seem a bit light to me. Screwing them into anything but loose soil can deform them and break off their coating. If I was worried about lots of wind I might try to get really stout and deep anchors if I was using screw ins.

Again this is a place where Clearspan's directions are interesting. They sell these screw in type anchors for "temporary" installations and then they recommend that you install them in cement. Go figure.

As I mention, I had a hell of a time getting my 30" anchors all the way into our clay soil. I am still working them down and re-tightening the turnbuckles. But there seems to be some holding power in them and I am quickly getting comfortable that they aren't going anywhere.

If you would be willing to share it, I would love to know what your costs ends up being for your Stimson shed. 4x is quite compelling.
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Post by Peter »

Having an air-born shed is a real possibility. We get some pretty good gusts here on our hillside, so I was concerned about losing the whole structure. My pony walls are EL- shaped, with the horizontal part of the EL on the outside of the shed, facing away from centerline, and diagonal braces joining the ends of the EL at every bow.

My shed has no posts into the ground to hold it down so I put 45 gallon drums filled with water on the horizontal part of the EL. Those, plus an assortment of stored junk, keep the shed grounded. Screw anchors were not an option as the ground is hard pan.
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Post by cantstopnow »

I have a very favorable opinion of the Stimpson style structure. I erected a a poorly constructed version ( I only intended to use it for one winter ) in about 16 hours using strapping sheet rock screws and twine for lashing the ridge board. The dimensions were 30' x 13' and I covered it with inexpensive tarps. I did use strapping screwed on from the outside to secure the tarps and prevent flapping that can shred a tap amazingly fast. I used the structure for 3 years and could have gone many more. The shed survived several storms with gusts in the 45mph range and the snowiest winter on record in NH, several storms dumping over 24" of snow. Shopping center roofs caved in that winter but not my $800 shed.

If care is taken building the structure as Tim said they will last a very long time.

I secured mine down with regular screw type anchors. They froze in very solidly for the winter.

The arches were easy to produce. I drove several crow-bars into the ground bent the two pieces of 16" strapping with spacers to the jig and screwed it together. It is important to over curve them to allow for spring back. You should be able to make the arches in about 5 hours.

Allowing the structure to flex will reduce the stress on your tie-down system.

Image


Good luck with it.[/img]
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Post by Shoalcove »

Nice looking boat! I think that if it was me, I would put a tarp on the boat and build a Stimson shed in the spring. I built a frame out of strapping with a high peak (using Tom Young's idea that he describes in an old issue of Good Old Boat) that worked well and allowed me to work on the deck and below. Time is against you now; you could use the time to strip off projects for in the shop and even haul the motor if so inclined. It's not like you can use epoxy, paint or use sealants for the next few months -perhaps being able to easily access the boat to measure stuff, remove more stuff or figure where the new stuff will go would be adequate for this year.
Best of luck,
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PS. A lot of The Shipping News was filmed around Blandford, Nova Scotia.
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Post by Tim »

You might be better off with a tarp now and address the "real" building later, when conditions and time are more favorable. Forget shrink-wrap; buy a good tarp and use that. Shrinkwrap is a waste of money, other than as a Stimpson shed cover.

Rushing to judgment now, with snow and frozen ground and little available time, might come to haunt you in the next winter storm.
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Post by Figment »

Ah, memories! Winter storms, airborne sheds, tools scattered for a couple of acres.... ah, memories!

Creative solutions for ballast will be key to the success. Peter's water barrels are a good one, I used that for one corner of mine. I also used truck tires, engines, all sorts of various debris. And then... the piece de resistance... a 40' box trailer parked right alongside.

Proximity to the driveway could be an asset in this regard. Have your plow guy pile about seven feet of snow up against that side of the shed. Windbreak and ballast in one.

Oh, and that reminds me... in that location I wouldn't spread the bows farther than 30" apart.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

I agree with the idea of using a combination of things for anchors - some in the ground, some on the ground and weighted. I do like the surface lip around your shed, Peter, and was planning something like that myself. How are you keeping that part of the shed clear of the ground to avoid rot, though? Or have you protected it somehow (that poisonous green stain or something), or do you plan to replace it as it rots? The Stimson shed plans suggest putting pressure treated posts into the ground as anchors - our garden is fairly near to where the boat shed'll be going, so I'd like to avoid putting poisonous posts into the ground if I can (I know that I'll be working with poisonous materials in the shed, but am hoping that draping the ground with plastic will allow me to contain it and remove it - thoughts on this aspect will be appreciated also, of course). Fortunately the garden is uphill from the shed location, but still... I suppose concrete blocks make a good base to build on - concrete blocks on gravel, you can put anchors in the gravel ahead of time and have them come up through the holes in the blocks where the knee wall can be connected to them. And a few more concrete blocks outboard of the structure will hold the "ballast ledge" for further weighting of the structure.

We don't have any guarantee of keeping our snow throughout the winter in this location - quite often when Halifax gets snow, we get rain - we're just slightly more influenced by the ocean. And even if we do get snow, it often just blows away anyway, so using the snow as part of the shed's sealing/insulating/ballasting isn't a sure thing.

As the build becomes more complicated the idea of covering just the boat for the winter becomes more appealing! Best bet is no doubt to start down the road to prepping the space for a shed, work which will not be wasted even if the shed doesn't get built until the spring, and cover the boat if the timeline looks like it's not going to allow the shed to be built before winter is here for real.

My past experience with plastic tarps has not been good - they've always beaten themselves to death in less than a single winter - and often done damage to the boat in the process (the flailing grommets scratch things). I"ve only used shrink-wrap plastic once (last year), but it worked much better since it gets tight and can't flail around as much as a result. Perhaps I'm just not very good at securing tarps? I've had good luck with canvas tarps, but they're very cost prohibitive, and since I would only need a cover for this winter, it doesn't make sense. With my past experience of killing a tarp in a season, shrink-wrap seems to make sense to me, actually. I even have the stuff I used last year on Weatherbird, which I didn't fully shrink and was planning to re-use this year, which it might be possible to partially reuse, we'll see.

The wood shed that I have to finish before I can start covering the boat is coming along nicely - but it's making me a little frustrated that I can't get right to work on the boat shelter! Fortunately the snow is going away starting tomorrow, that'll make getting work done on all these various projects much easier!
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Post by Peter »

Chris wrote:I do like the surface lip around your shed, Peter, and was planning something like that myself. How are you keeping that part of the shed clear of the ground to avoid rot, though?
Well, err..... "temporary" was the thought when I built it ... I didn't plan to keep the shed as long as I have, so no great precautions were taken as far as rot. I used old pallets for the EL shaped walls (free) and laid the whole thing on a bed of crushed gravel over heavy plastic. So far it's stood up well.
As the $ part of the shed is well above the ground, sitting on the pallet wall, I'm not too concerned if the odd pallet needs replacing.
I like the idea of permanent posts set in the ground ...might be the way to go if rot gets too bad.
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Post by Bluenose »

My past experience with plastic tarps has not been good - they've always beaten themselves to death in less than a single winter - and often done damage to the boat in the process (the flailing grommets scratch things). I"ve only used shrink-wrap plastic once (last year), but it worked much better since it gets tight and can't flail around as much as a result. Perhaps I'm just not very good at securing tarps? I've had good luck with canvas tarps, but they're very cost prohibitive, and since I would only need a cover for this winter, it doesn't make sense. With my past experience of killing a tarp in a season, shrink-wrap seems to make sense to me, actually. I even have the stuff I used last year on Weatherbird, which I didn't fully shrink and was planning to re-use this year, which it might be possible to partially reuse, we'll see.
This might seem a bit crazy but what about a hybrid Stimson Clearspan shed. Bob, of the soon to be famous Contessa project, mentioned that he picked up a used Clearspan shed and ordered a replacement cover for it. I feel that the value in Clearspan is their cover. I think it is quite clever the way they use a pair of straps to gusset the ends to tighten the cover for and aft. Then the cover is ratcheted down on both long sides. It seems pretty well done and really strengthens the building. I don't know how much they get for replacement covers (hopefully Bob will jump in here) but maybe it would be an interesting marriage for more permanent Stimson shed.

Just a thought.
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Firstly: anchorage. Have you got enough soil to pin to? I've used the thread-em-in anchors for fencing and it takes a remarkably small rock to stop the effort. Basically, when you hit a little something, the anchor spins in place and does not advance; happiest would be an undisturbed overburden having just a neat little spiral cut. Readily available and inexpensive from McMaster-Carr. Serious Florida marinas have concrete footings with accessible eyes for tie down. Back in my army days (I was a 'bridge specialist' in the engineers), we were taught that natural holdfasts (large trees, boulders) were to be preferred over even multiple arrays of D-handled pickets, but that buried deadmen (a log...) would do nicely.

Secondly: size. Bigger is better. Workspace, standing room, clearance for scaffolding or ladders, tools, work bench, materials and bits.

Thirdly: size. Smaller is better. Windage, heat, cost, ease of handling the components, decorative effect on the lovely property.

Fourthly: assembleablity / demountablity. Are you going to take this thing down seasonally, and store the components? Are you going to build it once and maintain it for several years? Is permanent a desirable feature?
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Gravel drains pretty well, and pallets are usually hardwood - should last pretty well, shouldn't it.

The trouble with putting a clearspan cover on a stimson shed (as I see it) is that it wouldn't be shaped correctly for the shed - and even if it is just a flat piece with no corners built in, the shed would have to be exactly the right size for it to be able to be tightened on. And the shrink-wrap is just as UV protected, I think - and lets more light through, I think. And is certainly cheaper - the quote I got from my buddy is $400. A new cover from the outfit I've been speaking with is around $1500.

To answer Doug's 4 points:
Anchorage: The place the shed is going to go is swampy with gravel on top of it, not sure where the rocks start. I doubt that I'd get those twist-in anchors down, but I'm pretty sure I can dig a hole and bury something (mushroom anchors?) deep enough. That, combined with Peter's idea for a ledge to put weight on ought to do it, I think. Not much around by way of existing physical features to tie to, though.
Size: I was considering 16' width/bows on a 4' knee wall, thinking that I don't want to make it too big, but there is not much difference between 16' and 18', as long as I can get the right length of lumber. And 18' on a 4' knee wall makes a nice height and width for working. I agree with you on all the tradeoffs of size.
Permanence: I'd like to continue using it year after year, but don't plan to take it down each summer. I don't want a building that's permanent, though, since we do plan to move at some point, and I don't really want to deal with getting the permits that would entail, either. So no foundation, and I'll be building the knee wall in 3 8' and 1 4' section, so the whole thing can be taken down and packed off to a new location.

At this point in time I'm planning to move the boat from where it is for a few hours, drag the existing little shed to the left (into the place that the boat is now), and prepare the ground for a boat shed to the right of the little shed. My sense is that I won't get far enough along to actually build the boat shed, though, so I'll end up covering just the boat for this year. If anyone has advice on how to cover the boat so that it can withstand the kind of winds we get, without using shrink-wrap, I'd love to hear it!
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Post by Bluenose »

The trouble with putting a clearspan cover on a stimson shed (as I see it) is that it wouldn't be shaped correctly for the shed - and even if it is just a flat piece with no corners built in, the shed would have to be exactly the right size for it to be able to be tightened on. And the shrink-wrap is just as UV protected, I think - and lets more light through, I think. And is certainly cheaper - the quote I got from my buddy is $400. A new cover from the outfit I've been speaking with is around $1500.
Chris,

No problem. I was just throwing out an idea since you were originally considering the Clearspan shed. My whole shed experience is pretty new but one of the trends I noticed when researching fabric type buildings, which seems to include the Stimson as well, is that the quality and thickness of the cover is the telling feature on its longevity, durability and of course, cost. I read too many stories, okay one is to many, about Costco type fabric building shredding their covers in windstorms. What it seemed to come down to was you spent X number of dollars per year of lifespan and in my case I wanted the lifespan number to be closer to 10 years than the 2 years many Costco shelter owners were talking about.

The Clearspan cover is a rectangle with no pre-made corners. So since your are designing your own Stimson shed and knee walls I would guess that there is a decent chance to get an existing one that fits.

Interior light in my Clearspan is excellent. The exterior is green except for a strip of white along the ridge, they advertise it as a skylight of sorts. The interior is white so the reflection of light is great.

All that aside, I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to buy a Clearspan. I completely understand the direction that your are headed. The Clearspan is a spendy option as are all of its parts. I quite like the look of the Stimson and I think a bow roofed greenhouse is my future. If my shed was on my own piece of land I would have seriously consider a Stimson.
Firstly: anchorage. Have you got enough soil to pin to? I've used the thread-em-in anchors for fencing and it takes a remarkably small rock to stop the effort. Basically, when you hit a little something, the anchor spins in place and does not advance;
My experience was exactly the same as this but with anchors occasionally "locking up" when they interfaced with rocks. I did, however, have great success letting our reliable Northwest rain loosen up the soil while I worked on other parts of the shed. In the end I was able to work almost all of my anchors all the way into the ground. The positive side of having anchors be a pain to install is the comfort in knowing how hard it will be for them to be to pulled out.

I do have a question for all of the Stimson shed owners. Is condensation a big issue for these types of buildings?
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Bill - just reread my response to your suggestion and realized it was pretty abrupt! Sorry about that, I didn't mean to reject it so thoroughly. In fact it might be a much better way to go, and would probably last long enough to completely justify the extra cost. I think if I were certain that the building I was putting up would stay put where it is for more than four years I'd probably consider it strongly, but my sense is that we'll be wanting to move in the next four years or so, so it makes more sense to me to use shrink wrap. I just received an email from a prefab tent vendor making the same suggestion, by the way!
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Post by Figment »

Chris Campbell wrote: The place the shed is going to go is swampy...
Find another spot, or lay down a substantial vapor barrier. Life is too short to spend half of your boat project effort on controlling the airborne moisture in the shed.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Good point. I don't have another possible spot, so a substantial vapour barrier it is. And vents up high for warmer weather, I suppose. I also have a spare wood stove I could put in - but then the building starts to look much less temporary. Although if I'm already putting in a solid gable end at the back of the shed, how hard would it be to run a chimney out of it? I wonder what my insurance would have to say about it, though? Beth wants a Sardine on board, somewhere, somehow - I suppose that would help inside the boat, and hooking it's little stovepipe to something to vent outside the shed would be pretty straightforward. Wouldn't heat the whole space, but it ought to make the boat itself nice and toasty. But I think I'm getting too far ahead of myself here!
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Post by Bluenose »

Chris Campbell wrote:Good point. I don't have another possible spot, so a substantial vapour barrier it is. And vents up high for warmer weather, I suppose. I also have a spare wood stove I could put in - but then the building starts to look much less temporary. Although if I'm already putting in a solid gable end at the back of the shed, how hard would it be to run a chimney out of it? I wonder what my insurance would have to say about it, though? Beth wants a Sardine on board, somewhere, somehow - I suppose that would help inside the boat, and hooking it's little stovepipe to something to vent outside the shed would be pretty straightforward. Wouldn't heat the whole space, but it ought to make the boat itself nice and toasty. But I think I'm getting too far ahead of myself here!
After erecting my Clearspan I fully appreciate the trap that is "temporary" shelters. I had around $600 into my Clearspan before they even delivered the building and billed my credit card. When you start adding stick built end walls, vapor barriers, gravel pads, heating etc. the whole temporary part goes out the window. Perhaps they should call them "no permit required" buildings, at least in my neck of the woods.

Tim sort of mentioned this to me in his subtle way. But I don't seem to do subtle very well.
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Post by catamount »

My temporary stick-built "tent" is still standing, going into it's third winter...

I swear, I really didn't intend for it to be up for more than about 9 months, but those 9 months quickly became 21 months, and then when I finally did launch the boat I was so busy sailing, I just never got around to taking the thing down. And now the boat is back in there for phase 2 (or is this phase 3?) of my re-fit project...

It's temporary, I tell you, temporary!
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

I agree with the recommendation to find a dry spot. I mean, why fight it? Even then, I'd want a nice deep compacted subgrade of gravel laid on a geotextile (Typar is/was DuPont's brand). The geotextile will filter mud from the water so that the mud stays down, the water comes up through the geotextile and drains away though the gravel. The supply house where you buy your gravel will have the textile. You can bury a little something substantial, like a couple telephone poles or railway ties, well under the gravel and lead cables up.

I'm forever grandiose designing things; ask Sue! I'd think long term about a site plan for the property. Then I'd be sorely tempted to cast a 6" slab, a parking pad, on the gravel, covered with sand, overlaid with 2" extruded polystyrene, covered with reinforced 6-mil poly, and unusually heavily reinforced (say #4 or #5 @ 12" instead of #10 WWM). The size would be to the inside of the dimensions of a permanent garage/shop. It would not be likely to attract the attention of the inspectors and when you went after the permits to build a garage, their first question would be about site and the second would be about the foundation design. Yours would be outside the floor slab and you could have the thermal breaks and frost walls that you'd want.

Our marina used to rent space to a boat painting outfit. Those folks cast a heavy slab complete with anchor bolts, and erected a large, tall, steel framed, fabric-covered shed. When the arrangement was terminated, the painters took their shed.
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Post by Rachel »

Although he did mention he's probably going to be moving house in a couple of years....
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Hard to imagine moving away from that view!

Approx: 44d31'12.82N 63d31'56.87W

Except maybe for that 44d north!

Slabs are pretty cheap, particularly when you do 'em yourself.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

It is a pretty wonderful view - but we do pay for it during winter storms! The house shakes like a leaf (doesn't help that it's 2x4 framed, built in 1898) and all of our heat blows away. But it is spectacular, it's true. The biggest reason for moving is to get more land - where we are we have enough for our house, four sheds, a small garden, and now a boat shed, and that's about it. It'd be nice to have some space to sprawl, and to have a nicer garden, and be less impacted by the neighbours, etc. Anyway, that's another thread, probably on another forum!

Google Earth puts us in pretty much exactly the right spot when you put in our address: 38 South Point Rd., Portuguese Cove, NS. Our house is in the 'V' in the road, the boat is to the right, on the other side of the road, along with two of the sheds.

I'll consider a slab, but I predict that I'll try to get by without it for now.

I've also realized that it's going to be the spring when this goes up - I have a friend's garage/workshop available to me to build the bows, and another friend who wants to do the same thing to work with in March, so for now I'll shrink-wrap the boat where she is and work on the interior. I think I'm going to be able to re-use Weatherbird's shrink-wrap from last year, I just have to construct a temporary frame to support it - that's tonight's task, getting the lumber for that (and more cedar shakes for the roof of the wood shed, which is coming along). I was going to build a mini-Stimson on top of the boat, but the more I consider it - with sides that aren't straight - the less sense it makes to me. I think I'll go with a 2x4 set of "stanchions" and rail around the boat, and a few ribs above that to hold it high. That'll give me enough space to move around to get the remaining deck hardware off and address their holes (the only remaining hardware is on the cabin top), and will obviously keep me dry for working down below on electrical and mechanical.

Seems a good solution!
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Post by JonnyBoats »

The house shakes like a leaf (doesn't help that it's 2x4 framed, built in 1898)
Yup, don't build them like they used to. Goes for boats and houses.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

I was all set to go out and buy the stuff to make a temporary winter's frame to cover her and build the Stimson shed in the fall, but was stopped by the fact that my truck was stuck and it took me too long to work it free. Then my mother came to visit, and asked me a question I couldn't give a very good answer to: why not leave the boat uncovered this winter since I'm building the shed in the spring anyway? I can still heat the interior and get work done over the winter, there is nothing on deck that requires protection, really, and it saves me the time and money to build a frame and cover it.

Can anyone think of reasons other than propriety for why I should cover the boat rather than just working down below for the winter?
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Post by JonnyBoats »

Can anyone think of reasons other than propriety for why I should cover the boat rather than just working down below for the winter?
I for one would not like to have ice and snow piling up on the deck. You know what happens to granite when water gets into a small crack and then freezes. Now picture water getting into a hairline crack in fiberglass and freezing.
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Post by Rachel »

Thoughts:

If you're going to be around to remove the snow (or maybe it blows off where you are), it would probably be okay. I forget whether you are going to paint the decks eventually, or do any core work...

Hundreds of boats in the Great Lakes go uncovered every winter. I don't think it's the way to go, in principle, but they don't all crack and it would just be one winter for you. You could keep snow and ice from piling up.

It would probably be harder to heat the inside, and you'd also lose the "mudroom" of the enclosed cockpit. Maybe just some plastic over the dodger frame (if you have one).

I would say "Oh, come on, it can't take that long to put up a cover like Tim uses." Except a cover like that would probably last through about one of your windstorms.

R.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

I am painting the decks, they have already been recored. I will be sanding the heck out of everything (including the cracked gelcoat in the areas that haven't been replaced in the recore), and if there is any damage from the winter I'll be fixing that sort of thing up in the spring anyway.

I wondered about being hard to heat, and I'm sure you're right that it would be less toasty - and I'd lose the mudroom, which has some appeal, no question.

I do have something that might be a dodger frame - but I'd worry about damaging it in a windstorm (two smallish fasteners into the deck on each side don't give a great deal of reassurance).

I agree that it wouldn't take long to put a tarp like Tim's on - and that it would take Mother Nature even less time to remove it!

Still somewhat tempting to shrink wrap, just for the mud room - but I can use that ~$200 ($50 for the frame and $150 for the wrapper's time) for something else, I'm sure. Doesn't seem like much money, though, does it. Where does one draw the line at trying to be frugal?
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Post by bcooke »

Where does one draw the line at trying to be frugal?
One gives up all silly thoughts of frugality when one accepts a boat project. Boat projects are many things to many people but they are never inexpensive. Nothing costs more than trying to save a little money.
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uncovered

Post by barrybrown »

If you decide to leave it uncovered, you may want to keep an eye on your cockpit drains to prevent them from freezing.

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Post by Shoalcove »

There are a lot of boats that don't do anything and survive. If you are concerned about the cockpit you could run a 2x4 from cabin to stern rail and put a 12x10 cheap tarp over it. Tie it down well and it'll do most of what you want until March or so. Just leave one corner easy to untie to get under from time to time. If you are planning a big refit, what will you hurt? Go to Armdale or South Shore Marine sometime and check out all the lousy covers - you'll feel better!
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Post by Tim »

If all the other boats were jumping off the Empire State Building, does that mean it's a good idea?

It just seems wrong to me to knowingly (or otherwise) leave a boat uncovered in a snowy, frozen latitude. No good comes from it even if no harm immediately comes from it either. But it's just not right. We care more than that.

Why not just tarp the boat, no frame? Even junky project boats deserve to be covered, but why bother with the frame at all if it's unnecessary? This is what I always do with the junk boats--the cover's important, but the frame isn't.

When you need to get inside, you still can, just by untying a few lines. Snow load is no problem on the flatter result because there's no frame to break; the snow will sit on the boat, but it won't get into anything.

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Post by Shoalcove »

Hi Tim,
I agree with what you say, to a point. In Chris's case I made the suggestion for a couple reasons. First, I know the area where he lives and they rarely have snow that lasts for more than a week most winters, so huge accumulations of snow won't be an issue. Since it's in his yard he could easily clean off any buildup before it was a problem.
Secondly, while I use a full tarp, Chris implied he wanted access to the decks and untying a full frozen tarp is a bother. Also he plans to redo the decks so there's not much chance of significant damage that wouldn't be addressed anyway.
Lastly, it seems like he was concerned about costs and considering having NO tarp at all. I just offered the next small step up. I certainly wouldn't reccomend such a set up if the work was finished.
I really appreciate this site and marvel at the work that the members here are able to accomplish. I try to aim just as high when I do work on my aging Cheoy Lee although not always with the same results. Thanks for the inspiration. I need it- there are a couple dozen locker doors in the shop waiting for me to get off this @#$% computer so they can get refinished! Have a great day, David
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Thanks for all the continued thoughts - I'm taking them all into account and trying to come up with the right answer. I still haven't finished the wood shed, however, which really indicates how little time I've got for this (daylight time, at least) - should have it done this weekend, though.

I was speaking with a friend locally who has put up many boat sheds to do work on boats (his profession), and he tells me that they usually just tie them to the boat's cradle (trailer, in my case) to keep them from taking off. Not sure why that hadn't occurred to me - not much chance of any wind generating more than 10,000 lbs. of lift, is there? And even less chance that any anchor system I come up with will be stronger than that. Of course I could still anchor it to the ground as well - but the thought of attaching to trailer makes me feel like I would rest easier during a storm even if I don't have the time and ability to tie it down to sleepers or deeply bedded screws, or heavily weighted skirts around the building. And it would let me put it up even after Christmas, if that's when I finally get the time - frozen ground isn't such a problem.

The other four options as I see it are: 1) do nothing; 2) rough tarp with minimal support over cockpit; 3) rough shrink-wrap with minimal support over cockpit (reusing last year's shrink); and 4) extensively framed shrink. I'm pretty much dismissing options 1 and 4, which leaves building a shed or minimally covering with tarp or shrink. Just so you all know where the train of thought is at the moment.

What opinions are there on using the boat as an anchor? Any reason that this seemingly simple idea is a potential for disaster or disappointment?
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Post by Hirilondë »

Chris Campbell wrote:

What opinions are there on using the boat as an anchor? Any reason that this seemingly simple idea is a potential for disaster or disappointment?
So long as the trailer or cradle are very stable and sturdy and there is no way for wind to get under the cover it should be fine. If you are using poppets then no way!
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Boats as anchors for tarping and covers...

Our marina has enough jackstands and charges rent for 'em, so they now use a minimum of four pairs. The marina also requires that the boats' sails are removed before the boat is pulled. The yard is gravel and only the inner leg is standing on a scrap of plywood. Folks in our neck of the woods often tent over their boats' booms and/or extend their covers to the ends at about that height. Very few folks pull their rigs for the winter.

A number of years ago, I used to have our Morgan 27 standing on three pairs and a 7th at the bow. And I would supply 21 decent pieces of plywood. Even so, I occasionally had the pleasure of working aboard during a honkin' beam breeze and it was most remarkable how much that boat would shake!

Thus, I never tarp the boat any higher than the cabintop. All you have to do is look onto some of the boat salvage sale sites and see some that have blown off their stands. Besides holing the hull and tearing tabbing, the rigs are often lost.

Your Yankee is on a trailer and w/o rig. Means it's higher and on a bouncy foundation. I think I'd keep my tarps low and tight, or just high enough and independent. During spring fitout, I often rig tarps temporarily for rain or sun cover and unrig them when I'm not there. It's amazing how quickly something nasty blows in when you're dog-tired, at dinner, and with a glass in hand!
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Good point about boats knocked over - although I'd think it would be more likely that the rig being in would be the culprit there. As far as bouncy goes, I'll be having the trailer's frame rest on railway ties, wheels removed, as low as I can reasonably get it. It'll probably be no taller than a boat blocked for a hydraulic trailer - bottom of the keel about a foot off the ground.

Still - a 35' long shed, 18' high is a large area for the wind to grab ahold of. Hirilonde's comment on keeping the wind out from underneath it will be crucial.

Brain continues to chug away on the problem...
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Update: Shed construction has begun - I've got the bows prepared and have now finally moved the other little shed out of the way and levelled (more or less) the site with gravel. That last was today, finishing up just as this began:
Image. The boat is back in place, although she needs to be moved a bit from where she's sitting - she's not quite centred. I expect to have the shed framed by the end of next weekend, and will then shrink wrap on my buddy's schedule. By the end of the month, for sure. In the foreground of that picture, note that the wood shelter's roof is actually looking relatively complete!

I've also put up a website to chronicle my efforts, noted in my signature below - the items in the "Design" section are open to comments if anyone cares to chime in...
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Post by Chris Campbell »

Another update: The shed's knee wall is up, the bows are prepped and ready to be erected. More detail on my site, linked below.

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Post by Chris Campbell »

The bows are up! Finally the shed looks like a shed - but there is still quite a way to go. Only a few of the horizontals are in, the diagonals are all temporary, and the gable ends/doors need to be built, so celebrations haven't really started yet - but it does look awfully nice already. Lots more information and pictures on my site, linked below.
Image
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Chris,

What stabilizes the knee walls? What stiffens the joint between bows and knee walls? Why did you not extend the bows to the ground?

D
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Post by Chris Campbell »

All good questions. The knee walls are there to give me enough width at deck level to get around the boat on scaffolding to paint. Without them I'd have needed to have bows much longer than 18' which would have required more substantial bows and would've made the shed wider than I wanted (the plans have the shed width pegged at bow length - mine is 18' wide, 18' bows - if you try longer bows without added width you can end up with the walls coming back in at the bottom)). The knee walls are stabilized by the back wall and three buttresses per side - enough to keep it from falling down, but not really satisfactory. I've considered running 8' connectors from the knees up to the bows, which would stiffen that joint significantly - but would also transfer some of the stress of keeping the knee wall upright to the bows, which goes against one of the reasons for not having longer bows. Other possible enhancements include improved buttresses, internal bracing with weights, and running an 18' pressure treated board across the shed in the gravel to brace against.

Of course any other ideas are more than welcome!

Here's the buttresses:
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Post by Chris Campbell »

The shed structure is complete, and I'm ready to wrap. Unfortunately I have to go away this week, so any windless day will go to waste (not that one is likely, the lowest forecast wind so far is 15 knots), but any time after March 6th that there is a windless day, I'll have a completed shed.

Whew! that took a long time.

On the subject of the bow-to-knee-wall-connection, I've handled it in two ways and may implement a third yet: 1) at the front door I've used the door frame to keep the knee wall aligned to vertical; 2) along the sides of the shed, inside, I've attached 8' 1x3 in tension, acting as springs to keep the knee walls from bowing out (and I've removed the 2x4 buttresses); and the possible 3rd) I may put 10' 2x4 from the base of the knee wall to the bows 6' up from the knee-wall joint with intermediate connections as well, in order to transfer stress from the bow to the ground directly and keep the bow to knee wall connection angle constant. I'm pretty sure that those measures will stand me in good stead - but have to say that I now wish that I'd just made 22' bows - I think that would have been a lot easier. Live and learn!

Updates on my site, http://www.ramoak.com/yankee30

Image

Cheers,
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