New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

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pjesus
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New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

Hi there.

I've been building a new tiller for my boat, which is almost done:

Image

Image

It's oak and mahogany laminated with epoxy.
The bend is not curvy but rather quite sharp because I felt it went better with the lines of the boat (and it was easier to make :D)

I was thinking of going old-school and varnish it but I like sailing better than varnishing, so my current idea is to give it a couple of coats of epoxy (thinned, so it gets in the wood better) and then a few coats of Cetol (clear, so I don't lose the contrast between oak and mahogany)

What do you guys think / advise?

Thanks a lot,

Tiago
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Rachel »

If it were my tiller I would varnish it with traditional varnish, then make a cover for it when I'm not using the boat (Top Gun, Sunbrella, etc.). I don't tend to epoxy under varnish.

With the varnish/cover combination you get the beauty of "real" varnish, and it should probably last longer than Cetol, etc. if the latter were not covered.

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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

You're right about the cover and I'll probaly do one anyway.
The other thing about varnish is that my boat doesn't have much of it, all other wood parts are dark Cetol, wihch I'm pretty happy with...

I've never tried the clear Cetol though, if anyone has some tips...
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Hirilondë »

I like Rachel"s idea. But no matter what you do I highly recommend not thinning epoxy at all using solvents.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

Hirilondë wrote:I like Rachel"s idea. But no matter what you do I highly recommend not thinning epoxy at all using solvents.
Hi there.

I build boat models and use epoxy thinned with alcohol to waterproof the wood.
I've seen it done by people that work on real boats.

Why do you recommend against it?
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Hirilondë »

Thinning epoxy with any solvent compromises all of it's characteristics including the ability to waterproof. It also does not need to penetrate deeply to adhere, so it doesn't really accomplish anything, and likely makes things worse.
3) Water resistance of a piece of wood is not enhanced by deep penetration. Wrapping wood in plastic makes a pretty good waterproof seal without any penetration at all. Likewise, an epoxy coating on the surface is more water-resistant than a thinned epoxy coating that has penetrated deeply into the wood because, in most instances, the epoxy thinned with solvent is porous.
This quote can be found in an article in EpoxyWorks, which is published by West System.
http://www.epoxyworks.com/indexprojects.html

Click on "Epoxy Techniques & Materials" and scroll down to the section on thinning.
Last edited by Hirilondë on Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

It does make sense.

In the models we do it mostly if we're using balsa (which I avoid), not the kinds of wood I'm using on the tiller.

Thanks!
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Carl-A259 »

Fiberglass coatings in FL sells thinned Epoxy for sealing wood, I use it on every piece of wood that appears porous or weathered.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by CharlieJ »

I'm with Rachel on the varnish and here's why.

My tiller has seen much use in the cruising we've done in the last two years. The varnish has gotten sorta sticky from all the hours of hands on use. Recently it aggravated me enough so I simply used a fine scrubby and some soap, and washed it down. Sticky gone, varnish still looks good, and when time comes I can just lay another coat on.

Do keep it covered when not in use.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by CharlieJ »

Carl-A259 wrote:Fiberglass coatings in FL sells thinned Epoxy for sealing wood, I use it on every piece of wood that appears porous or weathered.

That's a very different formulation of epoxy than what is sold and used as regular adhesive, coating, glassing epoxy. As shown in the EpoxyWorks article, the Gougeon's recommend against thinning, as do other makers.

If you really need the epoxy to be thinner, just heat it up, heat the wood (hot sunshine will work) then apply.
But be careful-heating can vastly speed up the cure rate.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Carl-A259 »

Charliej, Well there is a method to the madness.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Tallystick »

Dilute epoxy seems to work well if it's used highly diluted at 50:1 or so, and many coats are used, sanding with finer grit paper between each coat (I use 60 through 600 grit). If you let the epoxy really soak in and then evaporate and cure, you end up filling the pores of the wood to create a wood/epoxy composite. It takes a lot of time and effort to do this right IMHO. You still need varish over it to protect from UV.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by mitiempo »

Somewhere on West System's site - I think in their Wood Boatbuilding Manual they discuss the penetration difference of thinned vs non-thinned epoxy. There is very little if any difference with a normal boatbuilding wood. Balsa wasn't tested.<g>

I would coat with straight epoxy, finish with a good varnish like Epifanes and make a cover for it. My tiller hasn't had a coat of varnish for many years and is in excellent condition - it's covered when not in use.

I am curious why it was easier to make with the sharp angle change rather than a curved profile.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Rachel »

Tallystick wrote:Dilute epoxy seems to work well if it's used highly diluted at 50:1 or so, and many coats are used, sanding with finer grit paper between each coat (I use 60 through 600 grit). If you let the epoxy really soak in and then evaporate and cure, you end up filling the pores of the wood to create a wood/epoxy composite. It takes a lot of time and effort to do this right IMHO. You still need varish over it to protect from UV.
I'm really not expert enough to comment with any authority, but this sounds suspect to me. Does it really? (Not to mention, does the wood need it? I mean wood survives pretty well outside in many cases, especially if it is varnished.)

Would it really function any different than any (non-epoxy) sanding sealer? Or a properly thinned first coat of varnish?
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by mitiempo »

I wonder the most about the 50:1 part. That is really thinner and essence of epoxy isn't it?
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Tallystick »

I've used this technique mostly with restoring highly weathered wood pieces that could benefit from internal strengthening. High dilution is to maximize penetration, into the wood. Slow cure epoxy not 5min. The solvent is just to transport the epoxy, and conditions should be so the solvent evaporates before the epoxy cure time.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by mitiempo »

With the most experienced epoxy formulator, West, stating that epoxy should not be thinned I think 50:1 is a bit excessive. Unless you are dealing with end grain the penetration is limited by the wood's structure no matter how thinned it is. Here is what West has to say about it http://www.westsystem.com/ss/thinning-w ... tem-epoxy/

and an excerpt:
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Rachel »

I hesitate to respond, for a few reasons:

1) You are new here and I don't want to you feel unwelcome.

2) I'm not a wood or epoxy expert by any stretch of the imagination.

3) I hate to sound all negative/doubting-Thomas.

4) I'm all for "outside the box" thinking, and yet...

If there's one thing this forum stands for, it's providing good information. Information that current and future plastic-classic owners can use to plan and carry out their projects. So if I'm reading something that I feel may be questionable for that purpose, I want to respond.
Tallystick wrote:I've used this technique mostly with restoring highly weathered wood pieces that could benefit from internal strengthening.
I just can't feel comfortable with the idea that super-thinned epoxy can be used to internally strengthen wood that is in need of it. As I said above, I am not qualified to provide specifics, and I may be wrong, but I felt that I needed to at least bring it up.
Tallystick wrote:Slow cure epoxy not 5min.
Probably never hurts to be specific, but I think most members here are using a typical boat-working epoxy (WEST, System 3, and others), with either a fast or slow hardener, but not a "hardware store" 5-minute epoxy (although I have thrown a couple of "smoke bombs" off the boat in hot weather that seemed like 5-minute epoxy ;/).

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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Tallystick »

Epoxy can be used for bonding/gluing of two pieces, waterproofing things, and filling internal flaws and defects in materials. The methodologies are different depending on what you are trying to accomplish. You don't want to dilute epoxy when it's being used as an adhesive, but if it's being used for waterproofing or as a filler than dilution is useful i think. Yes, it's important to make that distinction of use, so sorry if I caused any confusion. Also, if the dilute epoxy doesn't penetrate because of the grain structure, that is actually what you want, and it means there aren't any tiny cracks and defects to be filled.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by mitiempo »

The best way to thin epoxy is by warming the work surface before application. From West's manual:
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Carl-A259 »

Tallystick says:" Dilute epoxy seems to work well if it's used highly diluted at 50:1 or so, and many coats are used, sanding with finer grit paper between each coat (I use 60 through 600 grit). If you let the epoxy really soak in and then evaporate and cure, you end up filling the pores of the wood to create a wood/epoxy composite. It takes a lot of time and effort to do this right IMHO. You still need varish over it to protect from UV"
I don't understand how adding coats will make it more waterproof, The way I see it after the first coat the wood is sealed. How will additional coats pass through the first coat of dried epoxy? Unless you're just building up the thickness On new wood very little Epoxy is absorbed, what little penetration there is is miniscule if any. This is my experience anyway.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by mitiempo »

With a 50:1 mix there isn't much epoxy. With that weak a mix there will be a lot of solvent evaporation, which as I posted above in the attachment, can cause voids. I don't believe in thinning epoxy at all. I have never had a problem with epoxy not working as designed in over 20 years of using West and several other brands.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Hirilondë »

If the goal and reason for using epoxy is to waterproof then I don't understand why anyone would consider thinning at all. Epoxy has an amazing attachment strength and does not require deep penetration to adhere well. Sand, clean (with solvent as necessary), apply 3 coats of epoxy within hot recoat times, let cure, sand and start varnishing. Why make it more complicated? Oh well, do what ever.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Duncan »

I would varnish it, then protect the varnish with a Sunbrella tiller cover, as Rachel suggests.
It will last for decades that way, without the complication of epoxy.

My reasoning is that epoxy needs varnish protection anyway, since UV would otherwise break it down.

The epoxy adds nothing, since the varnish itself will be just as waterproof.

When the varnish does need maintenance, it will be much easier to deal with than yellow old failed epoxy.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Tallystick »

I don't think there is reason to use epoxy unless you are restoring pieces that have significant weathering. On new pieces just use varnish. Using solvent lets you get epoxy into the wood, so it's not a thick layer on the surface. Thinning by heating and employing vacuum infiltration of the epoxy would be best from a materials standpoint, but not many of us have such equipment. To reiterate, you don't want to use solvents with epoxy when bonding, only when waterproofing or filling internal voids on weathered pieces.
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by Hirilondë »

Duncan wrote:I would varnish it, then protect the varnish with a Sunbrella tiller cover, as Rachel suggests.
It will last for decades that way, without the complication of epoxy.
I agree completely, but there seems to be 2 topics being discussed here. The original topic is what to use and the second one is how to apply epoxy when used to waterproof. My previous post is in response to the 2nd topic.
Duncan wrote:My reasoning is that epoxy needs varnish protection anyway, since UV would otherwise break it down.
Yup.
Duncan wrote:The epoxy adds nothing, since the varnish itself will be just as waterproof.
That's not quite true, but the added waterproofing is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Duncan wrote:When the varnish does need maintenance, it will be much easier to deal with than yellow old failed epoxy.
This is my main reasoning for not using epoxy as a base for varnishing on solid wood. Every finish used for wood will need to be replaced some day. I hate making that process any worse than it has to be. If the epoxy has penetrated much then not only will it be a pain to remove, but serious wood will have to be removed in the process as well.

People will never stop looking for the means to petrify bright woodwork. Greedy manufacturers will never stop trying to convince us they have already figured out how to do it. But the bottom line is that no one has succeeded yet. And until they (the proverbial they) convince me otherwise, I will stick with the tried and true that has stood the test of many years (real varnish).
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

Well... it's been a while but I don't want the thread to end here. :)

Last weekend the old tiller decided to meet its maker while sailing (which was in itself interesting) so I REALLY had to take to the new one.
Image

After all the advice (and experimenting with the Cetol I had) I decided to go with varnishing.
Image

10 more coats and I should be fine :)

Now I'm thinking of ways to keep all the rudder downhaul and uphaul crap away from that tilller and into the rudder itself (the upper part, which is aluminium).

Cheers,

Tiago
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

Just to finish the thread...

I'm glad I went with varnish and I'm happy with the end result. Although not professional it's quite good.

Image

Image
(a little detailing there under several coats of varnish)

As for the rudder, I did manage to keep the uphaul and downhaul out of the tiller and onto the rudder structure itself.

Image

Image

Image

I also included a locking pin, since I don't go to shallow waters very often.

Image

Image

Thanks for the tips.

Cheers,

Tiago
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by sscoll »

I think it looks great. Good work. How about a picture of the whole boat?

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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

(double post, sorry. Please remove)
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by pjesus »

sscoll wrote:I think it looks great. Good work.
Thanks, Steve :)
sscoll wrote:How about a picture of the whole boat?
Sure :)
Here's JetLag:
Image

Image

Here we are, sailing in Lisbon, on the Volvo Ocean Race departure day, with the new tiller:
Image

Sailing solo offshore:
Image
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Re: New tiller - Cetol, epoxy or varnish?

Post by sscoll »

Ahh, that's much better. Good to see you out there. Thanks.

Steve
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