How much paint?

[Gary]

I’m very close to starting the painting phase of the project. I’ll be spraying with an HVLP sprayer and plan to go with Alexseal paint. My color choices are: Wine Red for the hull and Snow White for the Deck and cabin top. I plan to use Beige Interdeck paint for the non-skid areas. What do you think about the color choices?

The Bristol 27 seems to be very close to the Triton in terms of square footage to cover. I’ve taken some measurements and calculate there are about 90 square feet of hull to cover and about 45 square feet of deck and cabin top to cover. Does this sound right?

Another question I have is; Do the coverage estimates given on Alexseal’s web site (e.g. 183 sq. ft. per gallon) take the converter into consideration. Meaning if I estimate 2 quarts hull paint are needed do I need just 1 qt of base and 1 qt converter, or 2 quarts of each?

Here are a few pictures:

[margitchris]

message deleted

[Tim]

Here are some exact total amounts (all three components mixed for spray: 1base:1converter, plus the indicated percentage of reducer) from the last Triton I painted. These figures represent the actual amount applied to the surfaces; I usually mix in round numbers with the intention of having a bit extra.

Your figures will vary based on application technique, equipment, etc., but I'd consider these amounts the minimum for planning purposes. In addition, there's a need for extra reducer to add to the mixed paint as you go.

High build deck (30% reduction, 3 coats): 414 oz.
High build hull (30 % reduction, 3 coats): 120 oz

Finish primer deck (40% reduction, 3 coats): 240 oz
Finish primer hull (40% reduction, 3 coats): 108 oz.

Deck topcoat (50% reduction, 3 coats): 110 oz.
Hull topcoat (50% reduction, 3 coats): 92 oz.

[Gary]

I’m surprised that the deck needs more paint than the hull. My estimations were based on some assumptions not actual measurements. One assumption was no Alexseal in the areas where I would paint with Interdeck? My plan was to mask off the areas where the nonskid would be. This may explain why my numbers are lower.

Should I instead plan to paint the entire deck area with Alexseal then over coat that, in the nonskid areas, with Interdeck? Maybe I’m over thinking this and there is just more surface area than it looks.

Also, I had planned to paint the hull down to 1 inch above the actual waterline. Is there a standard practice or rule of thumb for how far above the actual waterline the hull paint should be?

It turns out that on this Bristol 27 the waterline is very accurately shown in the original gelcoat. The antifouling paint picked up some discoloration at the waterline and as I was sanding I noticed the discoloration exactly matched the gelcoat line all the way around the boat. The gelcoat at and below the waterline is a light green color. Above it’s white. I took pictures but they don't clearly show the color change.

[Tim]

My actual numbers include both primers over the entire deck surface (including future nonskid areas), but not topcoat. I mask the nonskid areas before applying topcoat.

[Hirilondë]

I mask the nonskid areas before applying topcoat.

Why? I can see not putting much paint there, as it serves no purpose, but does it hurt to get some there? And wouldn't avoiding the hard line of masking make for better detailing when it comes time to paint the non-skid? I don't know any better, just asking.

[Tim]

With spray, you're either masking, or getting overspray over a large area (which would later have to be sanded and removed). There's no "little".

[Gary]

My actual numbers include both primers over the entire deck surface (including future nonskid areas), but not topcoat. I mask the nonskid areas before applying topcoat.

Thanks! Makes sense now.

[Gary]

Progress is being made… slowly

I’ve just finished the third coat of Alexseal Super build 302.

I used a Fuji Mini Mite 4 HVLP sprayer with gravity feed gun and Aircap #5 (1.8mm) needle. I replaced the stock cup with a 3M PPS large pressure cup. For safety I used an Allegro full face piece supplied air respirator system.

The 3M PPS product works very well. It allows one to hold the gun at any angle, including upside down with no issues. The large pressure cup was a little bulky for some areas, but other than that, no complaints.

After a bit of learning (reducer amount, flow adjustment and distance – spray gun to boat- ) the primer went on very well. I do have some orange peel here and there due mostly to not having found the best combination of adjustments. Primer sanding starts tomorrow.

Question: Would use of a 1/4 sheet palm grip sander or random orbit sander at this stage be ill advised? Should I stick to block sanding from this point forward?

[Hirilondë]

I use 400 grit on a random orbital at this point (assuming that finish paint is next).

[Gary]

Sorry, I should have added next steps and more detail.

Next is Alexseal fine fairing filler 202 where needed, then finish primer 442, then topcoat.

I plan to sand the high build with 100 through 150 grit per manufactures instructions. I’ll go straight to 150 if I can. I am considering going to 220 after the 150. I’ll make that decision when I see how the 150 does.

[Tim]

Go straight to 220. There's no need to work through the grits, and the coarser grits run the risk of burning through the primer in short order. I use a 1/4 sheet palm sander, but be sure you get a feel for how the product sands before you go too crazy with the power tool, as it's easy to sand through if you aren't careful. If you have even coverage and the surface is relatively smooth, you can sand successfully with the palm sander.

Of course, if you have heavy orange peel you might find a need for a coarser grit, but use one only if you truly need it. I've never used anything but 220 on the high build.

[Hirilondë]

If you are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with what will happen during this sanding phase you can start with even finer paper and do some sanding to get a feel for what will happen. Then go to 220 or the occasional courser paper for trouble spots. All you will be wasting is a disc and a few minutes, peanuts compared to the time and money invested to this point.

[Gary]

The 220 grit on a ¼ sheet sander is working well. It’s coming out very smooth.

I have just 2 comments (1 comment and 1 question actually):

1. Sanding under the counter… not my favorite thing
2. Which is the “you don’t have to work your butt off “ grit and is that also the “no sweat pouring down your face” grit? I’d like to switch to that. Would it be the 198 or the 199 grit?

[Tim]

Sanding builds character.

[Gary]

Sanding builds character.

Hmm…

Ok, So I put a ‘Character Under Construction’ sign up on my lawn to warn passers by (I didn’t know for sure, but things might have gotten ugly, and I didn’t want the neighbors to panic) then set back to work. Days later I’ve yet to see an increase in my character. ☺

Maybe it’s my sanding technique. ;-)

[Rachel]

Well if it's only been days.... ;)

[One Way David]

"Ok, So I put a ‘Character Under Construction’ sign up on my lawn to warn passers by (I didn’t know for sure, but things might have gotten ugly, and I didn’t want the neighbors to panic) then set back to work. Days later I’ve yet to see an increase in my character. ☺

Maybe it’s my sanding technique. ;-)"

Don't know you Gary, but would you normally put a sign in the front yard informing them of the owner's character defects? I mean...

Dave. enjoying following your progress.

[Hirilondë]

I have always been under the impression that pain was what built character!

Hmmm, but come to think of it, sanding is a pain. Maybe it does build character then.

[Gary]

Don't know you Gary, but would you normally put a sign in the front yard informing them of the owner's character defects? I mean...

Dave. enjoying following your progress.

OK You got me. Like the major news outlets, I embellished to improve ratings. No sign on the lawn. :-)

[Gary]

I sprayed Alexseal Snow White topcoat on the cockpit, coach roof and decks 2 days ago.

Spraying the topcoat proved to be more difficult than either of the primers (Alexseal Super Build 302 and Finish Primer 442).

I sprayed in 2 separate operations (idea taken from some of Tim’s project write-ups) just like I did for both primers. Cockpit and coach roof first (3 coats) then the decks and coach sides (3 coats).

I noticed a few sags and drips after spraying the first coat, during the first phase. I made some adjustments; Reduced fluid flow (the spray gun I use has a knob for this) and went to about 40% reducer from 50%, and applied the second.

The adjustments seemed to help, but after the third coat there were numerous sags and some runs. Some Internet research seemed to indicate that while too much fluid flow and reducer may have contributed, an inexperienced spray technician was the real problem. I thought I was applying thin coats but I guess I was actually applying too much paint per coat.

I’ve sanded the sags and runs with 150 grit using an orbital palm sander. Then using 320 grit and a ¼ sheet vibrating sander, I smoothed up the surface for repainting.

I’ll repaint next weekend.

Any helpful hints on detecting how much paint is enough per coat?

[Skipper Dan]

I do not know the paint you are painting. But I did body work for 11 years. More thinner lets you put on less paint. If you are getting a sag in the first coat use more thinner and lighter coats. If you get a sag in the second coat you did not wait long enough between coats. You can reduce the thinner for the last coat. Each paint is different and you should have been given a viscosity to spray at. Get a viscosity cup. The other thing is, do you have different thinners? Maybe the thinner you are using is too slow.

Look at it this way the thinner evaporates. So if you have more thinner you are putting on less paint.

Open your air pattern all the way. close your paint flow all the way. On a cardboard start opening the paint flow until you get paint. Open 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Spray this tack coat on. Open the paint control 1/4 to 1/2 more turns. Spray it on the cardboard. No run? spray the boat. Open the paint control 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Spray the cardboard, No run Spray the boat reduce the thinner and open the gun a little more and spray the cardboard... Last coat. One more thing is that you will get more paint on an inside curve and less paint on an outside curve. The old Volkswagen Beetle was one of the hardest cars to paint. A van one of the easiest. One other thing that could help is to fan the gun at the end of each stroke. This will give you a better chance of not getting too much paint at the end of each stroke. Do not paint in an arc, straight across then flick your wrist away. Start away and flick your wrist to start the stroke. I do not know where your air is set but most people spray with too much air.

Good luck Dan

Dan

[Gary]

Thanks for the info Dan.

I use an HVLP 4 stage turbine sprayer made by Fuji Spray. There are adjustments on the gun for spray pattern and paint flow through the nozzle, but no adjustment for air pressure.

I'm using all Alexseal products. Reducer = Thinner in Alexseal speak. I guess I had it backwards; I should have added more reducer. The reducer speed ranges are slow, medium, fast and vary fast. I have medium.

Thanks for the tip on flow adjustment and test spraying on cardboard. I’ll defiantly use that one.

[Skipper Dan]

What temp are you spraying at? The other thing you can do is go to a faster reducer for the first coats and go back to the medium for the last coat. The difference in temps is for dry line. So if you are not having any difficulty in getting around with out a dry line go up to a faster reducer.

I do not use turbine sprayers so I can not help you there.

Dan

[Gary]

I’m not sure I know what a dry line is?

It was mid 80’s for the first coat, first phase, then tapered off to about mid 70’s by the end of the job. The worst area, sag wise, was sprayed when the temp was at the low end.

Unless faster reducer is a “must have”, I’m probably going to stick with the medium. I get it from Hamilton Marine so unless I pay a little under .5 times the price of the reducer for shipping it’ll take about 5 days to get here.

So generally speaking, if I stick with the medium reducer I just wait longer between coats right?

[Skipper Dan]

Dry line is when you go around the boat and back to where you start and cannot get a good blend. (You keep getting a "dry line". The best thing to do is try and paint so you do not go back to the place you started. When we paint a truck we take off the tailgate. Now you start on one quarter and go all the way around to the other quarter. You never paint next to where you started. You can wait longer between coats and put on lighter coats. The last coat is where you get the gloss so you need to increase some there. You need enough paint to get it to flow. Paint to thick (Orange peel) no flow. Paint too thin flashes off too quick or not enough paint to flow together. (No gloss) Just the right amount of viscosity and the correct temp reducer and you get a nice gloss. You can fudge a little by applying the last coat sooner hoping that the two coats flash together.

Dan

[Gary]

A little more progress...

The exterior painting is finished. The deck paint is Alexseal Moon Dust applied with roller and mixed with fine and course non skid additive in a 50/50 ratio. The texture seems just about right.

Here are Some pictures of the finished paint job. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

Next step is to install the toe rails. The old rails are in poor condition so I'll replace with new. I'm geting prices for both teak and mahogany. I prefer teak, but if the price is too high I'll go with mahogany.

I'm thinking of building a taffrail similar to Dasein http://www.dasein668.com/projects/exterior/wood I may also try to reuse some of the teak from the old toe rail in parts of that construction. I'm going to see if I can somehow glue some cut and squared sections together to make the smaller blocks needed to support the taffrail. How well does oily teak hold when glued?

[Hirilondë]

How well does oily teak hold when glued?

Really well if done well.

Once you are all set to do the glue up, have done your dry fit etc., clean the teak with acetone Then glue with epoxy slightly thickened with cabosil. Do the actual gluing almost immediately after cleaning or risk oil coming to the surface again. By immediately I mean within an hour or so, it is not so time sensitive that minutes matter. The bond is greatly improved if both of the mating surfaces are painted with epoxy, not just one. Use clamps, but do not tighten so much as to starve the joint of epoxy. Tighten enough to cause some ooze out then stop. You can clean the raw epoxy ooze with alcohol, acetone, mineral spirits or even white vinegar . I like alcohol. Some people like to mask off the adjacent surfaces and then scrape the cured ooze off later. These clean up choices are a matter of opinion.

Teak is like gold. If you have some salvageable pieces by all means use them.

edit: Ah, the pictures finally loaded. she looks great, definitely worthy of nice new toerails and such.

[Gary]

I’m now installing new toe rails and having a little trouble. The scarf joints are splitting or popping apart during installation. I used West Systems epoxy with 404 additive as the adhesive. Is 403 a better choice? Would a different shape scarf be better?

Here are some photos:

http://www.bristol27-redsky.net/B27/Oth ... res.html#0

The length of the scarf is 4.5 inches.

The wood I’m using is Utile/Sipo which I purchased from St Angelo Hardwoods in Rhode Island. Utile billed as a mahogany substitute. From what I’ve been able to determine through research on the Internet, Utile has about the same rot resistance and working properties as Mahogany. The wood is a dark reddish brown color before varnishing and you can see from the photos what it looks like after 4 coats of Z-Spars 2015 Flagship Varnish.

Because I’m having trouble I’m considering, as an alternative, installing the rail in 2 separate sections creating a scupper at the point where the scarf joint is now. I’m not sure how that would look though. The deck joint was glassed over during all the work I’ve done and it’s painted so that part would be OK (e.g. no ugly joint seam visible in the scupper opening). Any thoughts?

[Hirilondë]

I’m now installing new toe rails and having a little trouble. The scarf joints are splitting or popping apart during installation. I used West Systems epoxy with 404 additive as the adhesive. Is 403 a better choice?

The best additive for gluing wood is 406 aka colloidal silica, but that should not make a huge difference.

Would a different shape scarf be better? The length of the scarf is 4.5 inches.

A straight scarf is just fine, but yours is way too short. The ratio of length to thickness of the wood should be 8:1 or more. It would also help if the scarf was oriented in the other direction (diagonally from top to bottom). This way as you bend the toerail into place you are trying to shear the glue joint instead of break it apart.

The wood I’m using is Utile/Sipo which I purchased from St Angelo Hardwoods in Rhode Island.

I have no first hand experience with the wood, but I don't see any reason why you should not use it. If the wood itself is not breaking as you bend the toe rail into place, then it should work. It will likely have the same issues as mahogany regarding finish (staining if not kept up well) but compared to $30/board foot teak there is a compelling argument to use it.

Because I’m having trouble I’m considering, as an alternative, installing the rail in 2 separate sections creating a scupper at the point where the scarf joint is now. I’m not sure how that would look though. The deck joint was glassed over during all the work I’ve done and it’s painted so that part would be OK (e.g. no ugly joint seam visible in the scupper opening). Any thoughts?

If your deck has other means for draining then I would hate to see you do this simply because of your first bad experiences with scarf joints. Many people are intimidated by them at first, and even more so after an experience like yours. But try again with a much longer scarf in the other direction before you give up. It is very satisfying to have the ability to lengthen wood in you set of skills.

Oh, and please feel free to start another thread for something like this. I often skip over threads on painting when I am busy, yet always read those concerning wood working. I am sure there are others who put less effort into following subjects that are not of significant interest to them and the people you really want to hear from won't even know you posted on a subject they have some expertise in. I don't believe Tim has implied any quotas on the number of thread subjects you can post ;>)

[Gary]

Launch day!!

Here are some pictures of Red Sky leaving the boat shed on launch day.

Thanks everyone for all the great advice.

This forum has been (and continues to be since a boat project is never finished) the single most important source of information for me during this project.

Here are some pictures. This is the first time shes seen the light of day in over 5 years.


This is what she looked like before the project started.

A before picture

And after...

[Skipper599]

Hey!
Red Sky is back in her element - Nice looking job Gary, Nice color too.
Fair winds, and happy summer sailing.

[Rachel]

Congratulations on the launch! That red is a great color, especially with the contrasting cove and boot stripes.

Exciting times :)

Rachel

[Figment]

Fantastic red, truly.

[Hirilondë]

Bah, no close ups of the finished toe rail next to the finished paint job ;>(

Looks great!

[Gary]

Bah, no close ups of the finished toe rail next to the finished paint job ;>(

I finally remembered to take some pictures of the toe rail. Sorry for the delay.

In the close-up of the bow you can see the forward most scarf.

The first picture is of the taffrail. Cutting the curve so it fit snugly over the curve of the stern was a challenge. I ended up getting it close to laying snug but not close enough. I had to lay plastic over the stern then lay a thick layer of thickened epoxy to "bed" the taffrail in (sorry no pictures). Once it hardened I simply pealed the plastic off, sanded the excess epoxy away and had a perfect fitting taffrail. That's cheating I know, but when your not a master carpenter you have to make up for the inevitable gaps somehow. ;-)

In addition to the traditional epoxy thickening additives I added some sawdust I'd gathered from all the toerail sanding. This made the epoxy the same (or very close) color as the wood. You can barley see the line of epoxy alone the bottom of the wood. Below that is the Mahogany colored Boat Life chalk.

[Hirilondë]

I finally remembered to take some pictures of the toe rail. Sorry for the delay.

Well it's about time! ;>)

In the close-up of the bow you can see the forward most scarf.

You have to look pretty close. And when you find the nice tight joint it reflects the care taken doing the job well.

The first picture is of the taffrail. Cutting the curve so it fit snugly over the curve of the stern was a challenge. I ended up getting it close to laying snug but not close enough. I had to lay plastic over the stern then lay a thick layer of thickened epoxy to "bed" the taffrail in (sorry no pictures). Once it hardened I simply pealed the plastic off, sanded the excess epoxy away and had a perfect fitting taffrail. That's cheating I know, but when your not a master carpenter you have to make up for the inevitable gaps somehow. ;-)

I don't think I would call it cheating. Shaping to a long gradual curve is one of the most difficult joints. There is no machine that can duplicate it for you. Not taking the time to perfect the joint would be cutting corners.

In addition to the traditional epoxy thickening additives I added some sawdust I'd gathered from all the toerail sanding. This made the epoxy the same (or very close) color as the wood. You can barley see the line of epoxy alone the bottom of the wood. Below that is the Mahogany colored Boat Life chalk.

Good technique for pigmenting the epoxy and good choice in bedding compounds.

A long and sometimes tedious road to get the results you achieved. There are no short cuts to such results. Well done!

Now you have to invite me for a sail so I can check it out in person :>)