Scraping bottom

[One Way David]

Yesterday I took advantage of some real nice weather and tortured myself. I forgot that I have a very strong dislike for scraping and sanding. Whine, whine, whine.

But In less than half a day I got through 1/2 the bottom. It looks like the last anti fowling was put on whatever was there with little prep, sometime it the distant past. I just waved that carbide scraper at it and the stuff almost fell off Thank you Tim for this tool rec, it is truly amazing).

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YB ... directlink

I don't know if the resolution shows the Bondo patch to the nose of the keel, where this "never been damaged boat"has about 8 sqft of repair under the paint and anti fowling.

Next, I had an illegal (for inland sailing) toilet that I removed and want to seal up the thru-hulls.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Cm ... directlink

This is the intake, which is buried under the sole/keel/bulkhead. Not visible with some demolition. And one seen on the pic of the port side scraped.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/F4 ... directlink

This is the exit from the toilet that I have no idea how to remove. I see one 1/4" bronze screw on this about 3" pedestal base. Grounding screw? My technical base would tell me to take a saw-all to it. Crude but effective. How do you guys say I should do it?

Oh yes, one more pic of wood work hat "just needs a little Cetol". 2/3 of the seat brackets and legs look something like this.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eG ... directlink

That bracket just below the fender should go all the way over to the ledge to he left. It's amazin but I did get 4 months of sailing in last year.

I posted pics of my rudder recently and was told to leave it alone (the cracks). Well reassure me now that I've go the paint off. The crack seen first, with my green finger, has no paint on the now separated jointed surfaces. It was suggested to not try to caulk this up. Should I try to get paint in there? The second crack could be separation of jointed boards but where it extends up (not yet separated) I cannot find a joint line. That would make a very wide board and I recall that grain lines in mahogany are very fine, so is it jointed and falls into the above category or a split in the wood with no interior dowel support?

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Gr ... directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/u7 ... directlink

and further up, not separated

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/u7 ... directlink

Thank you all for looking and any comments. I know this is a busy post, but I grew up in West Texas and boats had motors, tow ropes and my on a slalom or banana skis:)

[Hirilondë]

I posted pics of my rudder recently and was told to leave it alone (the cracks). Well reassure me now that I've go the paint off. The crack seen first, with my green finger, has no paint on the now separated jointed surfaces. It was suggested to not try to caulk this up. Should I try to get paint in there? The second crack could be separation of jointed boards but where it extends up (not yet separated) I cannot find a joint line. That would make a very wide board and I recall that grain lines in mahogany are very fine, so is it jointed and falls into the above category or a split in the wood with no interior dowel support?

If none of the components of your rudder move independently of adjacent pieces then the joinery is still intact. If none of the wood is punky then the wood is intact. If both are true there is probably nothing to fix. Continue stripping, scraping, sanding as planned to completion. Then I would paint into the seams with red lead. After is has dried I see no reason not to pay the seams with something soft and resilient. My choice would be polysulfide as it also holds paint well. Leave the filled seams slightly depressed, or concave, as when the wood swells it will be compressed some and bulge out. After the caulk has cured apply your new bottom paint. That is how I maintain wooden rudders.

[Tim]

Next, I had an illegal (for inland sailing) toilet that I removed and want to seal up the thru-hulls.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Cm ... directlink

This is the intake, which is buried under the sole/keel/bulkhead. Not visible with some demolition. And one seen on the pic of the port side scraped.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/F4 ... directlink

This is the exit from the toilet that I have no idea how to remove. I see one 1/4" bronze screw on this about 3" pedestal base. Grounding screw? My technical base would tell me to take a saw-all to it. Crude but effective. How do you guys say I should do it?

The small screw is a bonding screw, as you suspect.

Past experience with similar through hull/seacock combination on Pearsons would lead me to suggest that the flanged seacock is (obviously) threaded onto the through hull (if you have a visible mushroom fitting) but is also quite likely bonded to the hull with some sort of resin. Then again, it may not be, which would be a good thing. But be prepared for the possibility. It's also possible that the seacock is bonded directly over one of those fiberglass tubes, with no mushroom fitting at all. I have seen this before. You didn't mention what was on the exterior here.

You ought to try and save that seacock even if you're just going to put it on a shelf somewhere or make a lamp out of it--it's a a nice-looking bronze piece. Try not to damage the seacock itself. The best way to remove this whole arrangement is to work from the outside. Grind off the head of the mushroom fitting, assuming there is one. You might then be able to pound the thing into the hull from the outside, loosening the seacock. Use a dowel or something of similar diameter to push the now-cut fitting as need be. Or whatever you need to.

Then, perhaps with some additional persuasion/heat (if needed) from within, you can remove the seacock from the inside; deal with getting the threaded portion out later, if you want.

If there's no mushroom fitting, then the seacock is installed just from the inside with some sort of adhesive, whether it's an old version of adhesive caulk, wet fiberglass, or some other mystery product. This would be typical Pearson, should you find something like this.

For the intake, proceed the same way: remove the round external strainer and grind off the through hull head, then push it into the boat. This is quick and effective.

[Tim]

Here are a few photos of what I think may be a similar installation that I encountered a few years ago.

Exterior, showing fiberglass tube only with no mushroom fitting.


Interior with seacock in place. In this case, the seacock was mounted on a wooden block, lagged into the block, and also very well bonded to the block in a bed of wet fiberglass mat. I am pretty sure I have more pictures of this somewhere, but they're not currently online. I will try and look.


Interior, after finally removing the fitting, showing protruding fiberglass tube

[One Way David]

Thanks for the suggestions and replies.

The rudder seems solid, no mush or wiggle. So I will proceed.

Both the thru-hulls have mushroom-like appearances on the outside. The starboard intake has a screen over it. I cannot see the inside of the intake. Your pics are very helpful in letting me know how to approach this, thanks. The port sea cock has no other screws or mounting attachments, I suspect the pieces screw together. But I will find out.

BTW, when I get the port sea cock off I my wife said I could make a lamp out of it and send it to you 'cause I have enough old stuff around her to make lamps out of as it is.

One question I forgot to include. How does one get to the bottom of the keel? The first pic shows all I have for stationary support. A trailer with 3 supports on each side. I found that they were not all in firm contact as I loosened each to scrape under it. Is the hull strong enough to screw them up slowly to raise the keel off the trailer?

I have a tractor/front loader but I'm inclined to not use it.

Slow and tedious but I had planned to paint under each support pad individually. TThats 6 days x two coats primer one paint one anti fowling. Eeeeeek It'll be 2011 before I'm through.

[One Way David]

Never mind the lifting question, I found the thread on lifting the 4600 lb Shields. Thanks.

[One Way David]

Well, scraped a little today and got to the other side of the rudder. The joint line in question is amazing. One cannot see the joint line on the port side but it is clearly identifiable on the starboard. Definitely not a crack but a jointed board.

[Hirilondë]

Your rudder pieces (boards) are most likely held together by long bolts. They pass through the rudder post and through most of the boards and into the second to most aft board. They probably do not pass into the aft most, though one may. An oval hole is cut into, or maybe through that last board the bolt passes into such as to explose the threaded end enough to put a nut on it, When the nuts are tightened the boards are compressed together, made into a firm wide unit, and attached to the rudder post all in one. Often the last board is simply attached with drifts, which are simply metal dowels, usually bronze to match the rudder post and all other fasteners below water. Sometimes straps are added across the seam on either side of the rudder, often mortised in flush. Sometimes these straps are added later as a repair.

It seems you exposed at least one of the nut holes. I suggest you document in pictures any that you find for future reference. Sometimes these holes need to be dug out to tighten the nuts as part of a repair.

In the past I have had to make my own bolts to repair rudders. I use silicon bronze rod. It isn't as hard to do as some might think. It is however a slow and tedious process.

Based on your photos and description, it would appear that all the bolts are still tight and aside from some gaps at the seams on one side or at the aft most plank, all is as it was built. Just to be sure check the rudder for slop in its connection to the rudder post. If none there you don't have much more to do.

[Zach]

Dave, could you walk us through how you go about peening over the bronze rod? I've done a little riviting with steel... but it doesn't work harden much.

Thanks

Zach

[Hirilondë]

This is how I make bronze bolts.



Step 1 shows the form. It is just a chunk of scrap steel, drilled out just a tad larger than the diameter of the rod used. Then a counter sink is used to create the "V" for the head of the bolt.

Step 2 shows the rod inserted into the form. I cut the rod longer than I will need and cut it to exact length after the head is fabricate and then thread just what is needed at the end. Gauging how much to leave above the form to provide the needed material for the head is some what of a guessing game. The form is then placed on top of the jaws of a heavy duty vice. The jaws clamp onto the rod leaving the form sitting on top. Now it is ready for peening.

Step 3 shows the finished head of the bolt still in the form. I use a hand torch with Map gas as the heat source. Propane would work, but would take even longer. I heat the bronze right where it extends through the form. This heats the form quite a bit as well, but this helps maintain the temperature. The hardest part for me, and probably most, is using slight enough blows with the hammer to mash the exposed rod down into the form instead of bending it. Care should be taken to assure you keep the compressed/mashed top of the rod centered in the form as it is forced into place. I don't really know what more I can say to describe the process. It is learned by trial and error. I am particularly good at the error part myself.

This may be getting off the original topic a little, but since it is related and the question asked here, this is where I replied. I would have no ill feelings if it is moved.

[One Way David]

Thanks Dave. I'm new to boats but have done a lot of similar type work ont he farm, in furniture building, making tools, etc. That was a good explanation on making bolt/rivit heads.

The rudder wood, joints, and attachment are all very stable. I'm down to the last 2 feet of hull to scrape. And then the rains came. Next, grind off the thru-hulls and patch, sand fair and paint.

[One Way David]

Some almost after pics. See, I have 3 posts on each side. I lowered 2 on the uphill side and one on the downhill side for the first application of primer then anti fouling. Yes the camera lens is level and the boat has a drunken list to starboard.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jqUsX6GAK-g/SlVji ... 0_0332.jpg

Well, due to the list, I thought I'd give it a little more support before raising the lowered posts and lowering the raised. You see the starboard side would have only the one middle post up when I attacked the 2 18" square patches that need primer and anti fouling. I mean I know I'm tough and all, but gravity and Murphy? So I added the two new Kansas boat stands you see in the above pic and here.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jqUsX6GAK-g/SlVjj ... 0_0333.jpg

I had to swallow a couple of lumps to stick my paint-brush-girded hand in here to address the primer-less and anti foul-less patch you can't see above my fingers.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jqUsX6GAK-g/SlVjb ... 0_0334.jpg

Lastly, back in the first pic you can't see the thunderhead behind those trees that caught me by surprise and rained lightly about 30 minutes after I got the paint on. Just for good measure.

Tomorrow I will finish this if I have to duck tape the cans of paint to the bottom of the boat.

[One Way David]

I'm happy to report that I did not have to resort to duct tape. 30% chance of TS but it was just hot and humid. Launch tomorrow. I'll post pics.

[One Way David]

Best laid plans...

Well that Friday I laoded up the truck, hitched up the trailer and went to get the wife to go to the lake. "Honey, don't you think you should call work to see if your supposed to work tonight?" Uh, no. I did. I was. No lake. So, Sunday was my last night and work is half way to the lake. I figured I'd take the boat with me to work and go to the lake after work. About half way there, I realized I'd left the sails and running rigging at home. Ok, ok, I can deal with this. Thursday is coming and I'll just spend the day down there. Wife and I headed out in partly cloudy weather and by the time we got there weather had changes.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 3146758754

Well, I didn't actually see lightening or hear thunder and I have a real good life insurance policy so I forged ahead.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 2279305442

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 4373767218

A bunch of our friends came out to held, despite the weather.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 4004140610

And here is the final product, except that the clouds opened up right about now and we didn't get her in the water.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 6035807170

Well, I have a wonderful wife. Friday we had plans but the wife said lets go to the lake first. Clear skies, even the weather channel agreed. So we launched and sailed and had a great day. Here is Pearson Ensign 1387 with full sails.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 8436739474

And off port quarter bow on a starboard tack (did I get that right?). Note the shrouds.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 2526490498

And off the starboard bow same tack. It was a nice day with good wind, just a little white caps.

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 1292600274

"Uh honey, is this turnbuckle thingy supposed to be hooked to something?" "No hon, this model Ensign has three fixed port shrouds and two fixed starboard shrouds with a backup loose foot spare." Grrrr. I had left the cotter pins out of all the starboard shroud clevis pins. Lucky me, the pin was still on the deck. Still we had a great day.

Then yesterday, I snuck (is that a word? if not then I'm from Texas) off by myself and started with light wind on a run to the end of the lake. It took for ever to get there!! Sorry, my wind meter is the sails - full or slack - and my speed indicator is reaching over the side and dragging my fingers in the water to see if the boat is moving or not, and in what direction. Well, at the end of the lake I turn around looking for a light beat home and the wind dies and changes directions 180'!

http://picasaweb.google.com/OneWayDave/ ... 9266036930

I actually thought about holding that little 4hp Johnson up side down in front of the mainsail and seeing if I could get some wind. I motored home instead. At least I have her in the water. My goals this summer are to learn to balance the tiller with the sails and to deploy the spiniker as much as I can. I'll continue my tails over in the Sailing thread section. Dave.

[jdubes]

See question at the bottom.

Here are a few photos of what I think may be a similar installation that I encountered a few years ago.

Exterior, showing fiberglass tube only with no mushroom fitting.


Interior with seacock in place. In this case, the seacock was mounted on a wooden block, lagged into the block, and also very well bonded to the block in a bed of wet fiberglass mat. I am pretty sure I have more pictures of this somewhere, but they're not currently online. I will try and look.


Interior, after finally removing the fitting, showing protruding fiberglass tube

I know i need to glass over the hole in the end. But what type material did you use inside the hole? Did you cut some type of wooden plug and epoxy it into the hole?

Thanks

[One Way David]

jdubes,

this is an old thread, but I'll take a stab. If I understand what you are asking, you want to fill the hole left by removing a through hull. If you search this forum and go to Tim's website on Glissando you will have a bunch of reading on the subject. Basically the edges are beveled to a width proportional to the thichness of the hull. Gradually larger circles of FG are cut and glassed in. The patch is then faired and filled, or vise versa. I know this is a very sketchy answer but there are others much more knowlegable than I. I don't recall any recommendations to use ply to fill the hole.

Dave, hope this is what you asked. If not please disregard.

[Paulus]

This was a great post - allow me to help a bit with the pictures...

Best laid plans...

Well that Friday I laoded up the truck, hitched up the trailer and went to get the wife to go to the lake. "Honey, don't you think you should call work to see if your supposed to work tonight?" Uh, no. I did. I was. No lake. So, Sunday was my last night and work is half way to the lake. I figured I'd take the boat with me to work and go to the lake after work. About half way there, I realized I'd left the sails and running rigging at home. Ok, ok, I can deal with this. Thursday is coming and I'll just spend the day down there. Wife and I headed out in partly cloudy weather and by the time we got there weather had changes.



Well, I didn't actually see lightening or hear thunder and I have a real good life insurance policy so I forged ahead.





A bunch of our friends came out to held, despite the weather.



And here is the final product, except that the clouds opened up right about now and we didn't get her in the water.



Well, I have a wonderful wife. Friday we had plans but the wife said lets go to the lake first. Clear skies, even the weather channel agreed. So we launched and sailed and had a great day. Here is Pearson Ensign 1387 with full sails.



And off port quarter bow on a starboard tack (did I get that right?). Note the shrouds.



And off the starboard bow same tack. It was a nice day with good wind, just a little white caps.



"Uh honey, is this turnbuckle thingy supposed to be hooked to something?" "No hon, this model Ensign has three fixed port shrouds and two fixed starboard shrouds with a backup loose foot spare." Grrrr. I had left the cotter pins out of all the starboard shroud clevis pins. Lucky me, the pin was still on the deck. Still we had a great day.

Then yesterday, I snuck (is that a word? if not then I'm from Texas) off by myself and started with light wind on a run to the end of the lake. It took for ever to get there!! Sorry, my wind meter is the sails - full or slack - and my speed indicator is reaching over the side and dragging my fingers in the water to see if the boat is moving or not, and in what direction. Well, at the end of the lake I turn around looking for a light beat home and the wind dies and changes directions 180'!



I actually thought about holding that little 4hp Johnson up side down in front of the mainsail and seeing if I could get some wind. I motored home instead. At least I have her in the water. My goals this summer are to learn to balance the tiller with the sails and to deploy the spiniker as much as I can. I'll continue my tails over in the Sailing thread section. Dave.

[One Way David]

Thanks Paulus. On mastering the technical aspects of this great site, there are good tutorials and all the members are great about offering help.

Dave.