Cabin Trunk Modification

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:36 am

A curtain would hide the toilet from view. The advantages of a centrally mounted toilet would outweigh the aesthetics IMHO. The toilet could be enclosed in a box with a lid that would totally hide it from view too. That leaves a lot of room to either side of the toilet for bulk storage.

I think I would build a buklhead right behind the toilet too and allow the anchor locker to expand aft. That would take some of the weight out of the extreme end of the bow. I think the boat would like that; especially if you were thinking of 150+ feet of chain or something like the tropical cruisers like.

Now, I like the V-berth and wouldn't give it up. I like being able to get up and move around without having to make the bed first. Wide bunks in the main saloon are going to be in the way while deployed and it is just a hassle, albeit a minor one, to have to make the bed first thing every morning.

A second thought is that when cruising with someone else, it is sometimes nice to not see each other. The V-berth allows two people to be down below and not be always be in each others face.

A toilet in the V-berth could get ugly when cruising with someone else. Not that the standard arrangement is functionally any different but at least the second person doesn't have to move when the first person needs access to the toilet in the middle of the night. I have seen the offset double bunks in the V-berth. They seem a bit crowded (small) and don't gain a lot IMO.

I see the forward toilet idea as being a good passagemaking/lone cruising concept but less friendly for couples on a coastal cruise. Chose your poison I guess.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:41 am

P.S.

The more I play around with different ideas, the more I think Carl A. did the best job he could with what was available. My next Triton is going to be more stock. :-)

Not that I don't like my current plan better, it is just a lot more work and I don't need two cruising Tritons.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:16 pm

Thanks guys! Good thoughts. Britton, nice drawings!

I spent some time going over my notes and sketching last night... In regard to the midnight rush for the commode.

A drop in 22.5in wide cushion, that doubles as a back rest on one settee would drop between the two settees would yield a square double berth. Bumping the port icebox area out to the 33 inch mark of the galley side would give a little spot to stand, aft of the bed, so long as a toe kick is under the battery box/companionway step. (No inboard... grin) On the forward end the width would be that of the hanging closet, minus 2-4 inches so I'm not flat footed on the cabinet and rubbing a bald spot onto the top of my head on the bulkhead. (Grin)

With no door going forward, the width of the hanging locker minus four inches would be the floor space before the little step... (Which got me to wondering about a ramp instead of a step... no need for it with no door!)

Raising the settees would give more storage space under them, but also makes for a lot wider overall bed. Though side deck/head contact would occur... more often.

If the head can be mounted below the level of the V-berth, but it would need to be where the water tank is to fully enter the fore' cabin (I like that Rachel! May have to hang a sign... "Forward Cabin") for privacy. At the moment I'm pondering water tank removal, and replacing with four wedge shaped tanks. 2 aft of main bulkhead, 2 forward. (May as well move the weight out of the ends... grin!)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon May 19, 2008 3:18 pm

Musings on "space" aboard:

When my friend and I started out living aboard, at a marina slip while we were getting ready, we had a V-berth and we did use it for a "get-away" place sometimes.

Once we got going, it became a garage (and, twice, a guest-room) and we used the two saloon settees for sleeping (also the v-berth got kind of damp from salt in the air that came in with the wind-scoop). I know this would vary from person to person, but we never felt the lack of "get away" that the v-berth had provided (or else we might have made more effort to clear it out and make it usable, since we did technically still have it).

Instead, if we were each on a settee reading (for example), it seemed like we had plenty of [mental] space. Also, a great deal of the time, one person would be in the cockpit, or on deck, or off in the dinghy -- so the person down below had the place to themselves anyway. (Granted, the boat was bigger than a Triton, so the settees were further apart, and there was also a nav desk to sit at; that might make all the difference.)

On our boat it wasn't practical to sleep in the cockpit, but if it had been (as it is on a Triton), that would have been another potential "bedroom."

One place I did value for a get-away place was the head. That is, it was big enough to have space to brush your teeth, get dressed, ponder, etc. So in that way, for me, the "commodious" fore-cabin head would be really nice. (And normally, on land, I'm completely not the sort of person who spends hours in the "powder room," just for reference.)

I know I'm in the minority here, but I just never found it a bother to "unmake" the settee berth in the morning. Then again, our bedding was pretty simple, and I had a handy place to stash it (a trotter box once; and a giant, zippered throw-pillow case another time).

/muse off (for the time being)

Rachel

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:55 am

I'm jumping in a little late here not having read much in the thread recently... so I apologize if I'm repeating anything, but that won't stop me from adding my $0.02. ;)

The great thing about most of the early Pearsons is the comodious v-berth and cockpit. Whether or not the v-berth is actually useable, however, depends on how you use the boat and how you like v-berths.

If you are underway most of the time, putting the head in the v-berth might make some sense since you wouldn't be using the v-berth for sleeping and could benefit from the extra storage options. I know very few people that can stand to bunk in the v-berth while underway-- especially in any kind of water except flat!

I don't mind the v-berth while at anchor or in the slip, but I like to use it head first. To me it is much easier to get in and out-- but sleeping that way tends to induce clostrophobia in some-- particularly my girlfriend.

Of course she doesn't like Pilot Berths, thus demonstrating our differences in how we want to use the boat--- but that is a post for another time. :)

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Wed May 21, 2008 7:27 pm

Of course using the head in the forward cabin in heavy seas will be an adventure also. Might want to consider a seat belt.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:36 pm

Its funny that you mention that...

I was just pondering the other boat I'm working on, and the location of the head outlet. WAY up front in the bow. Because of this one had to time the pump to the plunging of the bow, lest the head turn into a bidet with cold atlantic ice water...

I think that sufficient hand and foot treads it will be a non issue, particularly with the lessened effect of heel. (Not a huge deal if it doesn't work out either... just put it back stock.)

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:04 pm

Hehe...I can see it now...

Picture a Triton, cruising along offshore in warmer latitudes. There was a gale last night and, while the winds have settled down, seas are still pretty rowdy. It's a warm, sunny day with occasional spray over the side into the cockpit. Harry and Sally are reclining in the cockpit, Harry has the helm. Suddenly, Sally's gotta go...

"Harry, I need to-ahh-use the bathroom. Its...?"
"Sure Sally, head's in the forward cabin."
"OK, be back in a few...-Ahh...Harry? What are all these straps for?"
"Oh, I forgot. Take a look at the plaque to your left."
"Hmm...it says here, Instructions for Using the 5 Point Harness. Umm....Haarrryy???"

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:25 pm

Tony:

Great dialog! Probably explains why I'm single... (Grin)

Way to much equipment around here thats like that. "What do you mean the seat belts don't retract automatically?" "Why does this car only start for you..."

(I've been working on the other boring stuff, explaining the late reply!)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:17 pm

LOL, good point. Tim and I were discussing the need to learn how to heave to other than in a storm. You have just answered that question.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:51 pm

I had a yo-duh moment thinking about the longer cabin top/cockpit that still allows laying around on those idyllic sailing days.

What happens if we do away with a large portion of the lazarette, and end up with a cockpit like an Albin Vega. They look like giant bathtubs to me, but it might do the trick, I used to sail a Paceship 23 that had a similar cockpit, practically just a transom and short coaming. Yeah, it gets narrow back there, but it doesn't have to with a rudder post extension... Bring the tiller head above the seats.

Would make the traveler at the back of the cockpit almost impossible, but could do a double mainsheet. Or move the traveler to the cabin top...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:13 pm

The Triton can't take much weight in the back end though.

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:23 am

I am out of my league in this discussion but I like Carl's forward head layout in the Cape Dory 25D.

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:06 am

Now that I am done with painting the bottom, topside, and completed the rub strake project I am once again thinking about the galley modification project. I took two of my kids putter around today and ran into another Triton in the Fortman Marina which is right next ours (Grand Marina). The owner, Robert, is in the process of redoing his galley. He invited us to check it out.

I was very impressed by his galley/salon layout. It is basically a mid galley layout. He rebuilt a icebox aft of portside bulkhead. He also installed a double sink (!) in front of the icebox (i.e. the icebox is between the hull and the double sink). On the starboard side he installed a propane bouble burner with an oven athwardship against the bulkhead. He also installed a propane heater aft of the stove. Amazingly all these equipment fit nicely into the very modest size Triton cabin. He said the two quarter berthes are full size (6'2").

I have seen other similar mid galley arrangement but only on web sites. After having seen one in real life I have to say I am more than thinking that could work for me as well. The one feature I liked a lot is that he raise the quarter berthes height a couple of inches. Not only are they more comfortable to sit on (like a normal chair height now), they also enable more storage space. Robert put two batteries under the port settee now. Finally, he said it is a lot easier to access the Atomic Four.

I will have to take some pictures next time to show what I am trying so inadequately to describe.

Best regards,

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:18 am

Oh, that's interesting to hear, Ray. I'd love to actually get on a boat that was arranged that way.

In my head, I can see that it works very well: You get all "walk up to it" counter edges on the galley, those two awkward corners under the bridge deck get used for the berth feet, and you get good engine access to boot.

In real life, I wonder if I would like it. I feel like I much prefer having those clear, open bulkheads to look at (and lean against!) forward, and it is handy to just be able to pass food and drink right out to the bridge deck. Also, you get more headroom and air there. And a dollop of salt water is much less likely to end up on your (sea) berth. Oh, and you can't easily make a main-cabin double berth out of this arrangement.

OTOH, there are those awkward corners, you're always bending and twisting to get to a good part of the galley, and if anyone comes below they have to walk right through it.

Here are some photos I've looked at to "see" the layout you're talking about. This is a Cape Dory 28 that a fellow fixed up (it did have an aft galley like a Triton) and is now solo circumnavigating on. He left from the US East Coast and I think he's in South Africa now. (The Cape Dory 28 is also an Alberg design, but it's a bit "bulkier" in the stern than the Triton. It also has a one-level coach roof.)

Original layout:

Modified layout:

Fwd stbd. You can see how he built the icebox/nav station right on top of the ex-settee flat. His boat has a watertank under the settee there, so he didn't make that space into stowage.

Oh, I had to come back and add this amusing note: As you can see, he reused several of the settee and divider panels, like the one just aft of the icebox here. The trim is wood, but the flats are wood-grained Formica (that he later painted white). He found that previous owners had varnished the Formica - wasn't sure if they thought it was real wood, or what (!) Hee.

Looking aft, in progress. You can see how this makes good use of those corners.

Finished icebox/nav, forward and to stbd:

Looking aft to stbd, finished:

And forward, to port:

Droolworthy pantry where the head used to be (he moved the head "across the hall"):

His website is here, if anyone wants to see more. He made some other interesting mods, such as a separated-from-the-keel rudder and raised, plank bulwarks. There are links to trip logs, too:

http://www.sbastro.com/FeNIX/mainFrameSet.htm

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:29 pm

I'd love to see pictures of that! I swear sometimes when I check out the boards its like we all share the same brainwave!

I've been drawing and sketching that layout up trying to figure out how it'd work. It's a similar layout to the Halcyon 27 and Contessa 26, Bermuda 30 and lots of old yachts. (I think galley forward yields better performance as the weight, at least on the Triton, will be directly over the keel.)

Without the bulkheads for the head/hanging locker... the galley can be under the low part of the cabin trunk. So long as nothing extends past the stock icebox the aft end of the cabin can have built in cabinetry. For me the stock counter height is lower than comfortable. Raising it in the stock location gives about a postage stamp of counter space, and loses the functionality of the storage space under the cockpit.

No great loss, as far as a stand up galley though... I have to put a knee on the settee and drop down to kneeling anyway. Standing aft, the companionway opening doesn't extend far enough forward to give standing headroom.

What I've been thinking = Two trotter boxes at the back, with cabinets that extend into the cockpit lockers. Stock hatch location means you just can't reach that far in! Also uses the space aft of the sink a little better, I never could figure out how to store anything there, other than tupperware. Might solve that by ditching the drawers and making the galley "unit" as a cabinet.

The part that keeps me coming back, is the possibility of a drop leaf table under the companionway! 2 person dinner table! Instant settee/full size chart table. At anchor there would be a little less light, but considering the airflow would be heading out the forward hatch anyway... Guess just have to try it out and see how it works for a while.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:00 pm

Okay, I officially need a sketch, Zach, so I can visualize that one! (Especially the table.)

Here's another "galley forward" that I've looked at and pondered. It's a Triton, Mintaka. The photos are from the NTA MIR site. It's interesting the way he made the niche on the starboard side instead of just a flat fronted section.

You know, what we need is a full-size Triton mock-up in a big room with lots of foam poster board and sharp knives, so we can all try out our ideas.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:44 pm

Drawing one:

Yeah the eyes are lopsided... I got tired of trying to draw them symmetrical, and the same size. It was either one or the other, I chose neither in an act of rebelliousness. Grin.

Here's the link to the idea on how to do a settee/chart table on the aft end... I left it monstrously huge off the scanner.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5618 ... 102nz0.jpg

The basic idea: The table is mounted on a pole, and is capable of sliding up and down the pole, or rotating around it. When its where you want it, lock it down with a set screw. Either stow it under a shelf, use it as a shelf... or maybe even lower it down to the settee height, and throw the cushion on top.

Take a U channel, lay out some holes in a half moon pattern. Add a pivot point, and a sleeved hole in the arm the table mounts on, and its adjustable to whichever tack you are on. As its drawn, its the same width as the walkway (22 inches) and would let someone walk down the port settee and out on deck if they need to...

Since I don't have an inboard, I can do some fun stuff with the width of the chart table, and make a cut out in the center walkway/cabinet for a step. but basically it stows down while chowing down. I'm thinking a cantelever mount would allow it to stow up, and then lower to a suitable working height... (think drafting table on steroids...) Without the head compartment, it can stow down while sleeping... only reason to open it up, put away some bedding in the trotter box behind it.

The stock berths are 72 1/2 inches long. The icebox is 32 3/4ths from the. The icebox is 21 1/4 deep... I seem to have misplaced my notebook that has the widths of the head compartment and hanging locker. Pretty sure the hanging locker is 16 inches... Overall I think is 120 in, which would put the head around 26 in.

So, without putting the settees into the cockpit lockers... the two equal length cabinets/galley units could be 47 inches long. A double bed is 54x75 inches... and the engine compartment lid sticks out 18 inches. I don't know how wide the settees are (pulled the cushions prior to measuring) but I think a double would squeeze in tight as a button.

One very confused Zach signing off... I like pictures more than numbers!

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:37 pm

Spent some time digging around to track down the picture I saw of the table...

http://uk.yachtworld.com/core/listing/b ... 32744&url=

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:00 pm

That's nifty. I can see why you want to use that somewhere. I think the earlier Nor'Sea 27s had that feature too.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:43 pm

Ta-dar... (Southernese)

The cockpit seat overhangs into the cabin 14 3/4 inches (Calibrated eyeball...)

The Main bulkhead to the edge of the low dog house is 27 inches. To the edge of the high cabin top is 36 inches. (this measures from the plywood, not the mast supports... Move em to the other side?)

Overall length is 124 1/2 inches... Which means a flush with the aft end of the cabin built in cabinet, and 3 foot long galley gives approximately a 72 inch sleeping berth.

Or... a 36+14 3/4 inch aft galley unit gives a 72 inch sleeping berth forward.

Still working on idea leaning points. Hard to have a cabinet/door/drawer in the middle of the spine... and with a cushion 2 feet is almost tall enough...

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:14 am

A few postings ago in this thread I mentioned that I saw another west coast Triton that was in the middle of a major restoration project and that the owner graciously invited me aboard to check out his interior work. Here is what I wrote then:

I was very impressed by his galley/salon layout. It is basically a mid galley layout. He rebuilt a icebox aft of portside bulkhead. He also installed a double sink (!) in front of the icebox (i.e. the icebox is between the hull and the double sink). On the starboard side he installed a propane bouble burner with an oven athwardship against the bulkhead. He also installed a propane heater aft of the stove. Amazingly all these equipment fit nicely into the very modest size Triton cabin. He said the two quarter berthes are full size (6'2").

Because I did not have a camera with me that day (I usually don't have a camera aboard Blossom) I could not post any pictures. Today, I visited Robert Heggen again and this time I was armed with a camera. Here are a few pictures to show what I mean. Rob explained that in order to build a full size quarter berth he had to move the after bulkhead 5 inches aft of the stock position. As I mentioned he is in the middle of a major restoration project (in the water) there is the usual pile up of parts and tools aboard (in the two quarter berths).

He actually has a lot of really good ideas which I have not documented here. Rob and few other west coast Triton owners are starting up the Triton One-Design of San Francisco again. Those of you interested can find more group information under the following link - Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TODSF

Port side mid galley - note the double sink and behind the sink is actually a ice box. I really like the hot drink thermos idea.

Starboard side mid galley - note the propane cabin heater and athwarshiply mounted propane stove. Rob said that he learned the idea from the Pardey's.

Port side quarter berth - Rob elevated the quarter berth/settee a couple of inches and it made a big difference (more comfortable).

Starboard side quarter berth - Rob moved the aft bulkhead five inches to gain enough room for a full length berth.

I would like to thank Rob again for letting me intrude during his project to take these photos.

Best regards,

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:13 pm

Beautiful work!

Thanks for the photos!

Zach

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:14 pm

Going back to Harrys boat for a minute. (144)

It looks like the companionway hatch and slides are sitting on top of a riser of some sort.

I'm curious if there is added headroom under that bump! Keep on looking at the bilge, and lowering the sole an inch or two makes it not very deep at all... Gotta do something though to keep from rubbing the paint off the ceiling with my head though! (Grin)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:53 pm

I think the West Coast Tritons have a bit of a tunnel/hump running down the center of the high part of the doghouse, giving them a bit more headroom - maybe that's what you're seeing?

R.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:33 am

Ray wrote:note ...... the athwarshiply mounted propane stove.

Does this preclude having a gimbaled stove? I think I'd miss my hot chocolate while underway ;-)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:11 pm

I think the idea is that you don't need a gimballed stove if you mount the stove athwartship. First of all, of course, the boat doesn't tend to heel fore and aft; but I think the main theory is that you would be standing ahead or astern of the stove (depending on where it was mounted), so if anything did fly off, it would not tend to fly off on you, the cook. Of course pot clamps would be necessary. Also, this might not work quite as well on a small boat like the Triton, etc. because you would often be standing to the side of the stove while doing other things.

The Pardeys have always sailed (and cooked a LOT) with a non-gimballed, athwartship-mounted stove, so they've advocated it as a choice in their books and articles. They noted that work/fishboats cook all the time and never have gimballed stoves.

I've only cruised with a more typical, fore-and-aft mounted stove, which was gimballed, but I can say that we often locked it in the un-gimballed position while cooking. This is because it seemed all too easy to accidentally put some weight down on the stove and send it (and the hot food) tilting towards you.

Conversely, we loved the gimballed feature when not cooking: It made a fabulously handy gimballed countertop and drinks holder, and of course if you accidentally leaned on the stove then you only have a spilled drink or a broken egg to worry about.

I can't really advocate for any of these as the best choice because there is so much variation in personal choice, and I think any of them can work. I just thought I'd mention why I think people sometimes strive to mount the stove athwartship.

Rachel

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:51 am

Peter,

Rachel is right on. Robert's decision to mount the stove athwartship is heavily influenced by the Pardey's. The theory is that even for long distance cruisers like the Pardey's one spends 97% of the time on hooks. During a voyage cruisers usually only cook when the sea is calm. In that case you can probably cook on non-gimballed stoves provided you have deep pans and pots. When the condition deteriorates one will probably stay away from cooking gimballed or not. That is the theory anyway. Many people subscribe to that belief.

In Robert's case if you look at the port side galley you will see that he has installed a thermos (next to the double sink). So, he can still enjoy a cup of hot chocolate when the going gets rough.

Robert has many excellent features on his late model west coast Triton. In addition to things like double sink and thermos he also built in a wet locker next to the toilet, a double propane tank locker, and on and on... Over time I plan to take more pictures and document it on this forum and on NTA website.

Best regards,

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:43 am

Triton106 wrote: The theory is that even for long distance cruisers like the Pardey's one spends 97% of the time on hooks. During a voyage cruisers usually only cook when the sea is calm.

Although I'll go along with the "much of the time at anchor" part, I disagree about only cooking in calm seas. I know that I cooked virtually every day (even when we were rolling and pitching around in a seaway to the point where the very facts of hunger and cooking were highly annoying - who knew an onion needing to be sliced could be so irritating?), and I think the Pardeys cook quite a bit at sea too. It was nice to cook something ahead for the first few days at sea, but after that cooking was part of the routine.

I think they just count on the fact that most boats don't pitch/roll/etc. that much fore and aft - it's more side to side motion - so they can have their stove non-gimballed because of its athwartship orientation. And, like you say, they do advocate deep pots and good pot clamps/sea rail. Although we did lock our stove much of the time, I don't know that I wouldn't always like to have a bit of gimballed countertop at least, if I could. I'd have to try the athwartship stove to see if I liked it.

Along those lines, I saw a neat idea once: It was a tray/holder thingie --- picture one of those old-fashioned wooden tool carriers that is a long, open box with a dowelled handle at the top -- that slipped over a rod that was above the galley table. I think there was a rod or hooks in the galley, too. So you could load up this tray/trough with drinks or cups of stew or condiments and then carry it to the saloon and put it on its holder, which was right over the galley table. Much simpler than a gimballed table, and you could potentially have it so that it was gimballed in the galley too.

Of course these things are always on bigger boats, but you can sometimes snag a concept and put it onto a smaller boat in some fashion. I like the Thermos on the bulkhead idea, and will try that this time around (I even have a cool "Stanley" thanks to some good friends who gave me one in a neat, custom-made teak mounting (it mounts with the spigot facing down) :)

Post by **Tim** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:11 am

The real beauty of these boats is how individual each can be.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:39 am

Yep. I really like how (most of them) are bland enough from the factory (i.e. no insanely beautiful joiner-work you can't bear to change, etc.*) that people feel free/need to re-work and customize them. And with Tritons and the like, the basic form is similar, so you can really compare the refits and get ideas.

*Not counting boats such as Tom's Challenger and probably Quetzal and a few others :)

JMS · Post by **JMS** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:50 pm

I thought this one (Morgan 27) was nicely done. Click the thumbnails for a larger image. Full-size photos (big!) are here: http://community.webshots.com/user/nemo01

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:48 pm

I think that is the world's largest chart table on a 27 footer. I love to see how the owner arranged to fit in the stove, sink, ice box, etc...

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:49 am

I haven't researched the Morgan 27, but looking at the forward ends of the settees, I'm thinking that there is either no V-berth or no separate head compartment -- thus allowing more room for the galley, etc. at the companionway than you would expect.

I was trying to figure out why the chart table folds down; I mean, what is there to use when it's folded? Didn't look like a quarterberth (?)

JMS · Post by **JMS** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:56 pm

There is a quarter berth.

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:52 pm

Taking another look at the cabin layout -

I came across this picture from Morris Yacht Linda (also a 28ft) - Splendid - which sports an aft galley but locates the sink between the engine room and stove. Granted it is a beamier boat (9'2) but it could also work on the Tritons.

Looking at Tim's 381 as an example, it seems that if the sink is moved a little further aft and more toward center line it might free up enough space for a fore and aft mounted gimballed stove. I think it will be a little uncomfortable to have the sink half way under the bridge deck (that's why at the beginning of this thread I explored the possibility of extending the cabin trunk by about a foot). It will also require the forward bulkhead be modified to add a trotter box in order to achieve a full length berth on the starboard side.

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:12 pm

I can't exactly explain why but I am really enjoying this thread.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:49 am

You can't have it all on a 28' boat, particularly a Triton.

I'm the first to admit that it's very awkward working at the sink in my galley, shown above. I have worked out a method of standing and working at the sink that works adequately, but of course it's far from ideal. For all the various compromises required to get any sort of galley, this set of compromises works for me. I like my stove, and the shortened settee berth forward of it was a reasonable compromise required to achieve a real stove with oven.

These next two pictures, also of my boat, help show why there really isn't room to move the sink inboard much. It would help if the countertop were higher, but even then you would be extremely limited in how far you could go, and for what gain? The sink would still be fairly awkward, and there'd be the sink bowl and related plumbing intruding badly into the engine's sacrosanct space. And the countertop would quickly become awkwardly high if you really tried to get a sink inboard and still clear the engine. I wish I had more room around my engine, and I'd certainly never accept less. As it is, I have quite a bit more room than the stock Triton engine compartment, but that doesn't mean it's big enough.

You can see that the top of the sink is roughly even with the top of the engine here. My engine is located slightly farther forward than the original A4 was, but that's not really the key factor here; there still wouldn't be room for a sink as you envision.

Here's a picture of the engine room in the very same Morris Linda shown in the post just above this. The sink plumbing doesn't overly impede engine access, but its location still complicates the engine room. And that's quite a shallow sink, too. Access to the starboard side of the engine is tight, and I bet foul oaths have on occasion been uttered as someone tries to reach whatever's on that side of the engine.

And here are two more Morris Lindas' engine rooms. This sink placement works without too much intrusion, but unfortunately the same placement just wouldn't work in a Triton: the engine location in a Triton is higher than this, raising the engine and therefore forcing the sink further outboard.

There are reasons why I don't try to design or envision too much without being in a boat and working with true, real-world 3D arrangements and mockups. What seems good on paper, or on a similar boat, often runs into serious execution problems when you try to incorporate it into your own boat. The space is what it is, and those pesky three dimensions, hull curves, and other intrusions that don't always show themselves in a photo or drawing tend to frequently impact your hopes and dreams.

The sky is the limit in terms of what one can do in any given boat--Tritons, in this example--but nonetheless there is only so much one can do within the confines of the space. It's extremely hard (impossible, that is) to get everything you might want; something else always gets compromised.

I want more from a galley than I can get from the space within a Triton. That's why I have a 35' Seabreeze project waiting outside. When I turn to that (and I will), I hope to have a bit more space to get more of what I want (namely a better galley) with fewer--but still present--compromises.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:09 pm

Hate it when you guys make so much sense. (Grin)

I've been doing some standing around on Pylasteki, and noticed that the only working space for galley use starts behind the head bulkhead and hanging locker bulkhead, with a forward galley.

To have the galley any further forward puts it under the short part of the cabin top... no standing head room.

Thoughts on galleys that are sitting/reclining only?

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:07 pm

Tim wrote:

There are reasons why I don't try to design or envision too much without being in a boat and working with true, real-world 3D arrangements and mockups. What seems good on paper, or on a similar boat, often runs into serious execution problems when you try to incorporate it into your own boat.

Of course he cannot be more right. But there is a method to my madness, i.e. I get the experts to do the work for me ;-) On a more serious note, thank you Tim for the pictures and insight on the engine room space issue. I had an inkling that could be an issue but like you said have not been on boat to measure it.

With that idea checked off I am back to square one...

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:44 pm

Zach wrote:Thoughts on galleys that are sitting/reclining only?

Ugh (In a boat where there is standing headroom by the companionway.) I guess that's why I lean more toward the "move the settee(s) forward" when contemplating giving up something else in order to gain more galley space.

(Just my opinion.)

R.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:23 pm

Yeah... That has been my realization as well.

The idea of ditching the head and hanging locker bulkhead adds great visual volume... but back to square one as there is only so much space to work with.

This is why I run things by Rachel... (Grin)

Zach

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:33 pm

Zach wrote:This is why I run things by Rachel...

Hee. You should see the reams of graph paper I went through when I was re-designing a little house I owned some years ago. The whole thing was only 19' x 21' and everything was just a little too small to use off-the-shelf items. After culling the graph paper ideas, I moved on to posterboard house models and then to real-space mock-ups. ("No, that box is a refrigerator, not a couch. Sheesh!") Talk about effort all out of proportion just trying to save inches...

I still have a couple of boxes in storage labelled "floor plans." :D

R.

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:03 pm

Zach wrote,

The idea of ditching the head and hanging locker bulkhead adds great visual volume... but back to square one as there is only so much space to work with.

That idea has been vetoed by the boss already. Privacy is a high priority. Adding a door between the saloon and head is on my to do list.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:37 am

Privacy on a 28 foot boat is an illusion.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:06 pm

I know this wouldn't be the same for everyone, but here's how it ended up on the (big) 32-footer I cruised on:

First of all, this boat had a roomy, private head compartment which included the head (of course), a vanity counter, a sink, lockers, etc. And a locking door. Yet for all that, if one of us needed to "spend a moment," we generally just asked the other to pop out into the cockpit for a short time. That worked great, and provided true privacy. Of course for your basic quick trip, just closing the door was more than enough privacy.

Thing is, you may have visual privacy with a door, but sometimes you want privacy for the other senses as well...

R.

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:59 pm

Ok, a door with sound and odor insulations :-)

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:28 pm

Ok...

Update:

I have tossed out the galley forward idea. Sliding the berths forward and saying to heck with straying very far from Albergs original layout.

It pains me to say such things, as I always like giving it a whirl doing something different, but I haven't come up with a satisfactory method to the madness. Putting heavy stuff directly over the center of gravity, pales in comparison to the ability to stand up while cooking. (though I still have to drop the sole two inches to wear shoes while doing it...)

The head is going to stay up forward... for the express purpose of (TMI warning) The ability to stand up whilst relieving ones self. Stand up in the forward hatch with a very... err... relieved expression on ones face.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:02 am

I have tossed out the idea of... straying very far from Albergs original layout.

Amazingly, and despite the obvious shortcomings of these small boats and their interiors, I came to the same conclusion that most of original designers actually knew what they were doing and came up with the best arrangement to begin with.

Its hard to convince people of this until they have gone through the process though.

As someone here says, "Damn that its all connected!".

So true. You can go crazy re-designing the interiors but in the end its hard to do better. The effort might be better spent getting the boat back in the water. (I remind myself of this constantly)

That isn't to say that changes can't be made, just that radical changes have to be compensated for in some way and unless you have a very clear vision of what you want it can become a complicated and pointless process very quickly.

My own current philosophy on boat interiors is that "less is more". The less detailed and complicated the interior, the more adaptable and enjoyable the interior. A simple open interior can be be adapted to just about any use you choose to put the boat to. One day you can daysail with six friends, the next day you can cruise a thousand miles as a couple.

A simple interior means you are sailing sooner too. Maybe its just me and the fact that my hull has been dry for nearly three years now.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:14 pm

bcooke wrote:
My own current philosophy on boat interiors is that "less is more". The less detailed and complicated the interior, the more adaptable and enjoyable the interior.

It took me a year to figure that out after buying my boat.

I had grandiose ideas about the main salon. I wanted a bulkhead mounted fold down table so 4 could have dinner. I wanted removable counter extensions for the galley. I wanted fancy cabinets along the hull on both sides. I noticed that I wouldn't get that all done in time for my self inflicted deadline of 8 months for launching and figured I could add these little by little over time. The adding to the interior over time part I got right. All of those details I decided I got wrong after the first season of sailing. Having an open space in the middle of the salon all the time on a 27 foot boat means people can actually stand up and move around a little no matter what else is happening below. Now that is a luxury as I see it!

I've had to forgo the formal dinner parties, but I'm learning to get over it.

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