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Something put a thought in my head, and I did some doodling, so I thought I'd pin this up on the wall for some spitballing.
We're all familiar with the problems of dealing with the existing Triton cockpit drains, yes? Crappy fabrication of a flawed idea, combined with cramped bilge, rather hard to create a proper workable solution. Many have tried, few have truly succeeded. We all yearn for something better.
So I started to think about a way to get things pointed in the other direction, saving inches, saving critical fractions of inches.
What if the drain were to take off at an angle instead of just going straight down? Sure, it might take an extra minute to drain a fully-pooped cockpit because of the hard turn, but it might work anyway.
It all has to start with some sort of glassed-in 90-degree elbow. I don't know of any such off-the-shelf product, but I'd think it shouldn't be that hard to custom-fab from some store-bought fglass tube stock.
This may or may not make it onto this winter's to-do list, but it's never too early to start scheming, eh?
I'm sure there's something I'm missing here, but if the cockpit were to fill up when you were heeled over consistently in one direction, how would the water drain "up" the the opposite hose? Or do you just figure the boat will rock around when it's that rough...
Remember that several of us have tried the crossed hoses on a Triton with ill effects--that is, it doesn't work. I know it works on other boats, but on a Triton it seems not to, probably because of the cockpit sole's proximity to the actual waterline.
I'm very happy with my pre-formed radiator hose that I found to fit the ridiculous contortion beneath the deck. There are so many styles available that I have to believe one could be made to work in any situation. Replacing the old fiberglass drains with something nice is surprisingly easy.
Rerouting the sidedeck drains away from the "Christmas tree" of the old fiberglass drain tubes (beneath the cockpit) also helps, as this enables one to replace the drain fitting with something much lower in profile, gaining up to 2" of clearance.
The other thing that helps the clearance issue is to use 1-1/4" seacocks with a so-called "full flow" tailpiece (which threads into a 1-1/4" seacock, but accepts 1-1/2" hose on the nipple). The 1-1/4" seacocks are quite a bit lower in profile than the monsterous 1-1/2" that would otherwise be needed.
Beyond all this, I don't see any real practical problems with the hard elbow, as long as a good debris screen were fitted to eliminate the propensity of the hard corner to clog with gunk. The hose connection at an angle could certainly make a critical difference given the tight clearances beneath the cockpit.
This project sounds like the perfect time to add that nice big deck hatch in the cockpit sole...
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My thought on the crossed hoses was that it might be workable if one disregarded the existing through-hull locations and installed the seacocks lower down in the turn of the bilge. You're probably right, this wouldn't be enough to get the crossed hoses to work.
Draining the side decks (and every drop of rainwater that falls on the boat) through the bilge of the boat has always irked me a bit. Do we know of anyone who's rerouted this drain directly overboard? or just modified the toerail to eliminate the necessity?
Tim, remind me, to where did you lead yours?
Yep, the cockpit hatch will be in the cards for sure, along with hinged cockpit seats. Even with all of that access, I'll certainly pull the engine when I decide to tackle this mess. I swear I could pull that engine in my sleep by now.
Figment wrote:My thought on the crossed hoses was that it might be workable if one disregarded the existing through-hull locations and installed the seacocks lower down in the turn of the bilge. You're probably right, this wouldn't be enough to get the crossed hoses to work.
The crossed hoses definitely don't work at all in the stock set up. Period. Don't even try it.
If you are talking about moving the seacocks anyway, you should have no trouble putting them somewhere that will allow you to make the necessary hose run from scupper to seacock.
Figment wrote:It all has to start with some sort of glassed-in 90-degree elbow. I don't know of any such off-the-shelf product, but I'd think it shouldn't be that hard to custom-fab from some store-bought fglass tube stock.?
Why not a PVC plumbing elbow? That's what I used for my cockpit seat scuppers.
Figment, I thought I had a sharp eye, but I hadn't noticed that you'd "moved" the seacocks inboard in that second drawing. Those are nice sketches you've done.
Pete, are you referring to that tube or channel that looks like it's glassed right onto the hull? Is that the deck drain? Does that go out above the waterline then?
Those seat drains look cool. Where do they drain to? How did you manufacture the recessed "lip" that the grates sit on? Do the old ones that are about of 1/3 back on the seats still exist? I bet all this is on your web site.
Figment wrote:Draining the side decks (and every drop of rainwater that falls on the boat) through the bilge of the boat has always irked me a bit. Do we know of anyone who's rerouted this drain directly overboard? or just modified the toerail to eliminate the necessity?
Tim, remind me, to where did you lead yours?
I put two bronze fittings (one for each of the two drains per side) on each side of the cockpit well, directly above the scupper drains in the cockpit well corners. I have found this to work really well. The downside is that when I sluice the decks to rid the anchor chain of mud, some of the muddy water ends up in the cockpit--a minor thing, really. It mostly goes straight down the scupper.
The deck and cockpit seat drains seem to vary from boat to boat and year to year. Later model boats didn't even have drains in the cockpit seats.
Direct-overboard sidedeck drains are nice, but they tend to stain the hull. And if you have the cockpit seat drains, those wouldn't work too well led directly overboard--too low in the boat.
Here's a back view, showing the ugliest part of my whole boat, apparently.
Here is where I stand with my drains. As part of the cockpit sole work, I cut the recesses for the perko drains. You can see one of them visible here:
I have two options under consideration:
Option 1: Install the seacock outboard of the old fiberglass tube where I can get a fairly straight (short) run of reinforced marine hose. Again, installation and replacement here would involve securing the hose to the (fixed) seacock first, then sliding the drain assembly down on top of the hose (with the recess caulked). Then, I would secure the drain with the 4 screws.
The picture here shows the rough placement. The seacock on the right is actually my 1 1/2" head discharge seacock that was placed here to show how the tailpieces would be positioned. The one on the left is the actual 1 1/4" seacock for the installation without a 1 1/2" tailpiece that Tim talked about. I have yet to order the tailpieces. As I look at the picture, I can see that the seacock might need to moved inboard a little to get a better angle.
Option 2: Turn the drain assembly the other way so that it drains inboard. Consider them fixed permanently in place and use automotive radiator hoses to conform to the proper bend.
Having taken 4 years to decide it was suitable, and stubbornly trying everything else under the sun to no avail, I'd highly recommend you consider the pre-formed hose. It'll make your life so much easier, and you'll find one that closely matches the contours you need.
It helps if you remember that the wire or other reinforcing material in traditional hardwall hose is there only to allow the hose to bend without kinking, which not only blocks the hose but also weakens it. A hose that is molded into a contoured shape during construction does not have the added stresses of hard corners and bends when it's in your boat; ergo, the strength should be the same or better.
And, as someone once emailed to me, remember also that that radiator hose is built to withstand heat and pressure that will never be duplicated in the cockpit installation. With good clamps and continued maintenance and inspection, there should be nothing to worry about. And the hoses are cheap, so it'd be easy to carry a full set of spares. (Note to self: get spares.)
The plan to attach the hose to one fitting and then slide the other into place before securing it just makes me jittery...to have to rely on removing one or the other side of things just to repair a hose doesn't seem like a great idea to me, somehow. Maybe that's an irrational concern, but I like to be able to get to stuff and undo/replace/repair/etc. it with a minimum of fuss.
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I have crossed hoses and mine work ok except when heeled way over. they still drain somewhat but there is a bit of water sloshing about. up til about 15 or 20 degrees they seem to drain ok. If I had it to do over I would have moved the holes furthur outboard and routed my deck drains out the side. As it is now I have bronze t fittings into my crossed hoses with deck drains connected to these. A lot of spaghetti to deal with. I guess the crossed hoses aren't the best but I don't find them so annoying that i will replace them anytime soon. Usually when the boat is heeled so much that the drains don't work as well as they should I'm soaked anyway so a little water swishing aroundmy feet isn't so bad. Tims setup seems pretty good. If you can find the pre formed hose maybe thats the best way to go.
Thanks for the clarifying shot, Pete. Interesting set-up with them below the water line.
Even though I'm accustomed to thinking that every below-waterline opening should have a seacock, I guess there's not too much that could happen with those, is there?
on the subject of cockpit drains, I have often felt that if I was doing an extensive upgrade to a triton, is there any reason not to just forgo the seacock and hose? make a rigid drain from the cockpit to the hull. no seacock. no hoses. I think this is just like the rudder shaft. if this drain was stout, it would both support the end of the cockpit and never leak into the boat. having all the proper fillets and such so there were no hard spots and all.
I suppose at times filling the cockpit with ice and beer may make for a good party boat, but why would you not want the cockpit to drain at all times? if all the seacock is there to do is act as an emergency shutoff when the hose breaks, then why not just make the drain as strong as the rest of tthe hull and be done with it.
There's a problem with rigid connections between structures on a boat, which is why you don't see these very often. Some form of "shock absorber" is necessary between the cockpit well and hull, as these two components will move separately, which would eventually crack and break any solid connection. That's why even the original fiberglass tubes used in most Tritons still required a short length of hose in the system.
Note that rudder tube failures are commonly seen in installations like those seen in Tritons. Rarely are these catastrophic failures, but cracking and related damage at the cockpit connection end are not uncommon. The distance between hull and cockpit is much less at the rudder tube location on a Triton; I feel the increased distance at the forward, scupper, end would make such a permanent connection less feasible, particularly with the dynamic loading that the forward end of the cockpit sees, thanks to the occupants moving in and out, standing, sitting, and so forth. I suppose one could make the rigid connection strong enough, but it would take quite a bit to ensure that. Even then, I'd still say that it would be better to have the flexibility of rubber hose. I have faith in the ability of the sea to overpower just about anything, which is why I feel that rigid connections just could be a recipe for trouble, despite all best efforts.
Even though cockpit scuppers are rarely, if ever, closed when a seacock is fitted, I still believe it is the right thing to do. Hoses fail with regularity, particularly when they are located in an easily neglected area. I continue to be amazed by the condition of hoses I see on boats. One can plug a hole in the hull with a variety of devices, but isn't a valve meant for that purpose the safest and easiest way to accomplish this, should the worst happen? There's nothing evil about hose: it just requires inspection and maintenance. Boats, perhaps more than anything else we own or otherwise deal with (houses, cars, etc.), are unable to be left alone successfully without continued maintenance. Water is too unforgiving of neglect.
The fact that a 1-1/2" hole in the bottom of the boat remains open (as in a cockpit scupper) all the time is not, to me, reason to say that there should not be a ready means of closing it off. The sea is too unpredictable, too powerful, and one just never knows what might happen. Likewise, the power of that sea should never be underestimated in terms of destroying a seemingly strong structure. I just don't have enough faith in the ability of that solid connection to absorb the potential loads, whether in single catastrophic event (less likely) or, more likely, in regular use and flexing over time.
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Could the later Tritons be a little different from the earlier models as far as angles and clearances under the cockpit? Curious that Nathan (#668) seems to have the same problem but in my boat the bend in the hose really isn't that bad. There is some bend but not too excessive and if I had done a better job of aligning the parts before I drilled the holes they would be better still. When I remove the original drain "fittings" in the cockpit sole I will install new ones even better aligned with their respective seacocks.
No one has mentioned the real reason for installing seacocks in the Triton's cockpit drains. Put four people in the cockpit and the water level is higher than the cockpit sole so the seacocks are needed to keep the cockpit dry while having a party.
